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Google Lucia Rijkers and look at her arms. During Her kickboxing days, she was sparring in the second dojo and 10 minutes in the guy she was training with was knocked out. Her nickname was Lady Tyson. Imane Khelif has been training longer than many male boxers and if you ask me, way longer than the Italian girl.
stephen, why do you keep mentioning trans when discussing khalif ? virtually no one that is critical of khalif and has a good handle on the issue is acussing them of that. the general consensus is that khalif has some form of DSD. you would know this, right ? by continually mentioning trans in relation to khalif, it could be argued that you are engaged in strawmaning. and as a result, bad faith argumentation. [edit - there are far more comments in 'newest' than here in 'top'. because yt knows better than you]
I find all these combat sports depraved. MMA especially so. I see 'to-the-death' coming back to society soon...it's a certainty it would be the most popular sport since ancient Roman times. And Joe Rogan would be sitting gleefully at ring-side.
For all the people who think that bigotry can’t affect you because you’re not t part of the affected group, let this whole ridiculous situation be a warning to you. Bigotry has no bounds. It will eventually spill over onto you.
Yep, that's why social justice garbage needs to be put to rest. Tired of all the bigots claiming they're not while admitting that they are and demanding you must be worse than their narcissistic selves.
I know of a cis woman who was murdered by a man because he thought she was trans and a man who was murdered because he defended a trans person who was being attacked by a bigot. Hatred effects everyone. The names of the people I mentioned are: Dionne Peacock (59 years old) and Collin Smith (32 years old). May they rest in peace.
@Anglomachian you are right, sadly this push on identity politics has amplified rascim. In the UK, most mainstream folk used to judge gender and colour blind(most people). Now we are told we are a nation of racist whose country was built through slavery. And we are encouraged to see everybody through the lens of colour or gender. The bigots have managed to turn many neutral folk who never bothered into folks who only see race and gender now..... shocking
And this is exactly how it will happen too. They will make a mistake, and because their self-image is dependent on them never being wrong they will double down instead of allowing themselves to experience humility.
I grew up playing sports from a very young age. I did ballet in my kindergarten years, swimming and tennis in my primary school, and I added short distance running in my junior high years. Because of this, I was teased at school, in my neighborhood, and even at home for looking too masculine. Fortunately for me, I looked up to Florence Griffin Joyner and surrounded myself with women who did not live according to the social expectations of women. Does it still affect how I feel about my appearance? To a certain extent, it does, but learning to love and accept myself the way I am has lessoned the effects of being teased for not looking "feminine enough." But this experience is also another reason why transphobia affects women too. The truth is that these people are not really trying to protect women. Rather, they are trying to protect the ideals they hold with regards to sex and gender. "Women are supposed to be weak or feeble". That's why a physically fit woman is perceived to be masculine.
All Olympian women are exceptionally fit, but sports are still divided into male and female. Why do you think that is? How long would you guess it will take for a woman to beat Usain Bolt’s 100 and 200 metre records, never mind FloJo’s? Men have 165% of women’s punching power, so don’t you think it would be good for Khelif to prove she’s a woman and has no advantage?
Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting have not won all the competitions, which means that other women have defeated them. Imane Khelif has been defeated by several women in games such as 2021 Tokyo Olympics, she was defeated by Irish athlete and missed the top three. Lin Yu-ting has also been defeated by women several times. 2021 Tokyo Olympics, she was defeated by Filipino athlete. If she had a competitive advantage as a male, she would have been a victor all the way.15 years, why would she have to train herself so hard even during her menstrual period? the New Delhi Boxing Championship in 2023, she won a bronze medal, then IBA said she is male?! Why did a male only win a bronze medal in women's boxing but not a gold ? The so-called test was carried out by the corruption association, and even the people involved never got the results. Before believing IBA, better take a look at what it has been accused of and who is behind it
@@littlecatfeet9064 1) Is the Olympics hosted by the IOC or you? 2) The IOC has endorsed the athletes (all tests passed). Any question, one should question the IOC who is responsible. 3) By what law, by what right, by what international etiquette, should anyone on earth ridiculously prove themselves to you?
@@simba5366 1). Maybe I should host the Olympics, given what a shambles this Olympics was. Gross opening ceremony, men in women’s sports, triathletes in hospital after swimming in the Seine? Not many people could make it worse. 2) The IOC sex tests were rigorously applied, using…looking at the two athletes’ passports (and probably the two Zambian women’s soccer players) and saying that if it has an F on sex, whether or not that’s changed, that’s enough for them. They didn’t want to offend any of these men at the same time as their affiliated agency, WADA, is able to do “whereabouts” drug testing, meaning drug testers can show up unannounced at any time at the place you’re usually at to take a sample. If you’re usually home but not when they show up that’s a mark against you. But you’re saying easy sex tests are the real human rights issue. Sure, buddy. 3) They don’t need to prove themselves to me. They need to prove themselves to all the women they beat to get to their gold medals, and to the parents worldwide who have to decide whether or not to stop their daughters from playing sport for their safety or encourage their sons to cheat in girls’ and women’s sports just to get a medal.
“Those are man’s arms” bro do you not realize that everyone at the Olympics are the BEST athletes in the world and are essentially freaks of human nature, they aren’t supposed to look like everyday people because they go above and beyond what average people do for athleticism
Yeah that guy is really really weird. I had this misfortune of him being thrown at me through an algorithm. Seems to make fun of left wing women using their appearance as the punch line. Nasty guy
Its worse that that, go google female bodybuilders, crossfit athletes...dear god, Women Gymnast's will put most mens arms to shame, thst guy is a freaking tool, and not the sharp kind.
There's a decent argument to be made that high level athletes of all sorts are basically freaks of nature. You kind of have to be in most sports to make it to that level since its all so close. So, sports basically end up being a selection mechanism for who has genetic advantages of some sort. Which means you get "freaks". Having a little more lung capacity, or denser muscle fibers or being a bit taller can give you just the sort of edge you need to move up and compete at that level. And, at some point, you just can't make up for it with training. Not to say training isn't important and can't even things up alot, but for that last little edge to win, some sort of genetic advantage is what's needed. Which is why dividing sports up into men's and women's is silly. We really should be asking what we want out of this stuff. If what we're really after is the best, then what we're going to get is "freaks" the rest of us can't hope to ever measure up to, no matter how hard we work. Maybe we should think about some way to level the playing field so genetic advantages (combined with training, of course) don't just mean a victory. And while we're at it, get rid of the silly men vs women thing. If a woman can compete well with men, then she absolutely should. If you have men who are very good at what they do, but just don't have the genetics to be "top tier", why shouldn't they compete with women?
There were women with bigger arms in the same competition. Some of the other Women's Boxing Olympic contestants had way bigger arms than Imane. Which means if that streamer is telling the truth he didn't even watch the sport he's trying to have an opinion on.
Women with arms this big are everywhere. Even influencers right here on youtube - check out Caroline Girvan, to name just one. But of course the guy knows that, and is simply spouting off hoping no-one will notice.
I went to college with a chick that was a power lifter and she was absolutely jacked. Like, I'm 6'4" 195lbs and I climb trees with Chainsaws tied to my waist. I still wouldn't for a second want to tango with her.
I have a customer that is clearly male, he dresses as a woman, he gets a lift to my shop from his wife. I’m saying he but he may identify as she. I don’t know and I don’t ask. I serve the customer with the materials I am asked to supply and take the money. We have a laugh and a joke together sometimes. I don’t care what he identifies as, and he’s not harming me, my staff or my other customers. He or she is welcome in my shop any day of the week.
As a former construction worker, I’m always proud of my kind, respectful, and tolerant colleagues within the sector and related industries. I hope you have a great day, and many more to follow
@@larschristianalm as English might not be your first language, I’ll be careful what I say about your understanding of it. I’ll just remind you that I never pretended he or she was anything. I said I didn’t care what he or she was. Calling him he or she was me declaring that what ever he thinks of himself as is fine with me.
It's notable that the supposed "tests" she "failed" only came up at the world's after she beat an undefeated Russian, an event overseen by the Russian lead, now defunct IBA. Tests never seen, no details, and apparently never actually done.
6:44 I have spent my life since 9 years old being told I’m not girlish enough and look like a man. I am physically more capable than most men too. I am built, broad shoulders, tall, big hands, big feet…… oh yeah, only described as big because the expectations for what a woman is doesn’t include actual women, just fantasies.
I can't tell you how much I long for a world where feminine weakness is not expected to be the default nature of women. I get called a misogynist on the regular for expressing my genuine admiration for women who reject the socially imposed and entirely constructed _dainty_ persona. You be you. I've got your back.
Culture often creates cages - and then culture warriors come in to guard the cages and make sure the doors stay locked, and wail about the end of the world if the doors are ever opened.
I come from a family with broad shoulders and even women nearly no (small) waist. The amount of times I got thrown out of women's bathrooms when I was younger and much more androgenous than now (I'm almost 60) I can't count. In my 40s I got wider and got a something like a feminine figure. But even now, I could pass as a man if I wanted to. This whole "movement" is hurting everyone. Which is more reason to fight for all women (and men) and against discrimination.
Bro...I got into an argument with this dude who posted the La Pont interview as proof Khalief is a man...I read it and said that "no...this is literally nothing, in fact it goes against your point" and you know what they said? "Imane Khlief doesn’t have fallopian tubes or a uterus. If he did, he would display the results of ultrasounds showing female (partial) internal anatomy. Of course, he has not done so. We know why. He can’t."...this is where we are at; randos online demanding pictures of a woman's uterus to prove their sex...just insanity.
You think that's bad my conservative gf thought this person was pro after birth abortions the TLDR version is she refused to watch the whole 8 minute video in context and said the they them alphabets changed the words on google then after I called her out she said I have the freedom to lie 😂
I heard a discussion about the condition that Imane might have. But this was based on the IBA story which itself is shady. The problem is that given the range of atypical sex-related conditions in human beings, there need to be clearer guidelines on what exactly disqualifies a person from competing as a woman, i.e. external genitalia, internal reproductive organs, hormone levels, etc. This opens athletes up to an invasion of privacy for sure. But that is to be expected when competing at the highest international level.
"These are mans arms!" My dude, have you seen Katie Ledeckys arms??? Her shoulders??? How about literally any of the female powerlifters? Jesus, my guy.
Boxer Joana Nwamerue who trained with Khelif: “Khelif has some kind of internal issues. But he is a man. I will stay by my words until he/she does a test to prove to the world that he/she is a WOMAN. But we all know that won’t happen. Khelif’s teammates came to me and told me ‘Khelif is a woman and just lives high in the mountains with her relatives and parents and so there may be a change in her testosterone or chromosomes and the like. So myself and my coach watched Khelif and I said ‘that can’t be possible.’ Everywhere has people living in the mountains. It’s absurd.” Mexican Brianda Tamara, against whom Khelif boxed in 2022: “When I fought with her, I felt very out of my depth; her blows hurt me a lot. I don’t think I had ever felt like that in my 13 years as a boxer, nor in my sparring with men. Thank God that day I got out of the ring safely, and it’s good that they finally realized that he is a man.”
This story is such a great example of how little evidence is necessary to confirm a bias, and what bothers me more, the unshakable calcified confidence of folks that are repeatedly proven incorrect.
The evidence is out there, really just shocking that RR didn't show the IBA saying Imani has XY, or taking Abt Imani not providing any results to contradict the claims.
@@albertcastro3500the IBA doesn't work with the IOC anymore due to corruption and denying things they aren't allowed to deny like appeals. When asked to show that test they don't.
@@albertcastro3500 watch the video… RR literally addressed exactly that. She had to prove exactly as much as the other female athletes had to prove. She’s lived as a woman her entire life… that’s not a plausible con to win at sports.
@@reedclippings8991 ruclips.net/video/sWv7RQaLIxk/видео.htmlm38s says specifically we don't have enough evidence to say she is intersex , won't respond to the rest cause ur an idiot, the evidence is out there XY IBA says so , he should have spoken on this but he ignores it
@@reedclippings8991 ruclips.net/video/sWv7RQaLIxk/видео.htmlm38s says specifically we don't have enough evidence to say she is intersex , won't respond to the rest cause ur an idiot, the evidence is out there XY IBA says so , he should have spoken on this but he ignores it
I feel so sorry for Imane Khelif. Imagine having high-profile people like XY Rowling, Trump, Musk etc comment on you publicly like this. This is possibly the worst example of bullying I've seen.
Well, that's what you get for signing up for the women's division in the Olympics after accepting the ruling from your original governing body that you're disqualified for not being female. Maybe, just maybe that should have given her pause?
The comments were based on tests that showed them to be male. If they object to the results of the tests, why not sue the IBA and prove Rowling, Dawkins and Musk to be wrong?
The worst part about it.... she actually lives in a country were she could be killed for it. It is funny how quickly everyone assumed her to be trans, when she lives in a country were such a thing is illegal.
As a female mma fighter, I appreciate this commentary. Fight sports shape fighters, even small female fighters, will hit harder than their male counterparts because they train harder and have perfected their techniques. Our bodies look hard because we train hard. You hear this "it's a dude" rhetoric too often when we train harder than our competition. If we look more feminine, then it's because we're cheating. Loosers always have shit excuses. Thanks for speaking up and defending female fighters.
We don’t allow women to have bodies of strength. Well fuck that they should. Transphobia is just sexism under facade to be socially acceptable again. As we always end the transphobia is typically at…. Trans women. Which ultimately saying society has an issue with women.
As a male mma fan, I salute you and what you're doing. It's hard, it's cool, it's fun, and I'm very impressed. Kudos to you, maam. Good luck in that cage!
@@richardmetzler7909 She's saying women have to train HARDER than guys to achieve the same level. Which isn't wrong, it's like a handicap. Consider HalfCoordinated, a speedrunner with hemiparesis. He speedruns on the same level as people who can use both of their hands on a controller, but had to adapt pretty much everything to do it one-handed and essentially work more to get on the same level. There's nothing disparaging in saying he worked twice as hard as people without hemiparesis to hone his speedruning skills, this isn't dunking on other speedrunners. Likewise, saying a female MMA fighter worked twice as hard as her male cohorts isn't dissing them. It's just acknowledging the different starting points.
as a trans woman, I really appreciate your support. whether trans women have an unfair advantage or not over cis women, i don't know, but it is endlessly dystopian how this hysteria over trans women has caused such damage to women of all kinds, not just trans.
This is kind of the vibe I get. I don’t know whether trans woman would have an unfair advantage or whether women like Khelif do. But, what I do know is the hateful invective all this has aroused in so many people is horrible. I get it’s a tough subject, but why it has to engender the level of hatred and cruelty to other people in a very personal way is beyond me.
Boxer Joana Nwamerue who trained with Khelif: “Khelif has some kind of internal issues. But he is a man. I will stay by my words until he/she does a test to prove to the world that he/she is a WOMAN. But we all know that won’t happen. Khelif’s teammates came to me and told me ‘Khelif is a woman and just lives high in the mountains with her relatives and parents and so there may be a change in her testosterone or chromosomes and the like. So myself and my coach watched Khelif and I said ‘that can’t be possible.’ Everywhere has people living in the mountains. It’s absurd.” Mexican Brianda Tamara, against whom Khelif boxed in 2022: “When I fought with her, I felt very out of my depth; her blows hurt me a lot. I don’t think I had ever felt like that in my 13 years as a boxer, nor in my sparring with men. Thank God that day I got out of the ring safely, and it’s good that they finally realized that he is a man.”
6:50 this part is just so rich. “This is a man’s upper body!”… shows that the guy doesn’t watch many female sports or competitions if he can’t recognize that the top women athletes (aka the ones who go to the Olympics) are often muscular as hell. Especially strength-based sports.
Lol. Yep. Did you see the pale little guy who made that comment? Anyone who follows women's sports knows that especially in sports such as wrestling, power lifting, rugby, and a few others, the athletes can have incredibly masculine physiques.
@@supme7558 Every athlete in the Olympics is subject to testing for performance enhancing substances. If she had tested positive, we would know by know. If that doesn't convince you, what would?
"If I was judged for everything what I did between the age of 16 and 19 I would be in prison." YIKES. How do these people keep telling on themselves like this? Nevermind sexual assault, raise your hand if you haven't done anything criminal in your youth. 🤚
@@theStrayKat1980 And your apparent lack of reading comprehension scares the living hell out of me, so let me help you. In the context of this sentence, "nevermind sexual assault" does NOT mean that sexual asasult is unimportant, it means that most of us haven't committed anything remotely criminal in our youth, least of all a crime as serious as sexual assault, while the person in the video assumes that most people have committed crimes comparable to sexual assault. Is that clear now?
@@barkasz6066 How does "nevermind sexual assault" convey "crimes comparable to sexual assault"? Before I read your explanation, the charitable interpretation that came to me was that you lowered the bar to minor shit like smoking cannabis. Instead of gracefully clarifying and apologising for insensitivity whether intentional or not, you choose to attack the person's intelligence. Go outside and touch some grass.
I really hate what Dawkins is doing. The fact that he's conducting himself in such a way that what he'll be remembered for is being a transphobic, cultural Christian, is depressing. His scientific work is going to be all but forgotten if he continues to behave this way.
I mean isn't the guy who won the nobel prize for discovering dna (or something about dna, i forget) a out and out racist? People still respect his work.
He's been on the Islamophobia train for far longer than many are willing to acknowledge. The fact that he joined a particular subset of the "sceptic" community in cozying up to the right wing and becoming garden-variety reactionaries doesn't surprise me, and neither does his combining the transphobia with the Islamophobia to deny the womanhood of a brown woman. I can't even muster disappointment: this is who he's been for a long, long time
Of course the shade thrown on the two women boxers has nothing to do with the IBA being crook and that Kremlev got bent out of shape when Imane Khelif beat a Russian fighter.
Okay but you're willing to give credit to the Olympic Committee same people who told the Chinese government they're more than welcome to tell us whether or not they cheated in the Olympics. I take it as long as the corruption leans towards your world ideology you're okay with it it's only when it goes the other direction that it needs to be called out.
I was an athlete in high school with elevated testosterone levels due to PCOS. I was good, but certainly not the best by any means. Should I have been banned from competing? This is a very nuanced issue and things aren’t as black and white as the transphobes like to think. My heart breaks for Imane Khelif. She worked so incredibly hard to become a gold medalist, but instead of getting to enjoy the fruits of her labor, she’s been bombarded with hate just because of her appearance.
It's nothing to do with her/his appearance, and tragedy/sob story have nothing to do with it. If she has XY chromosomes then whilst it's hard luck, she is a man
I actually think women with PCOS are somewhat over represented in athletics, but that’s not actually on par with someone having male levels of usable testosterone from internal testes. Women with PCOS have approximately twice the level of testosterone on average than other females, but males generally have ten times as much, and sometimes far more than that. I’m not saying that’s necessarily the case here, but it was definitely the case with Caster Semenya. Not all DSDs are the same and each case needs to be considered individually.
@@peterschaefferwow I’m assuming you listened this. You men must feel so threatened by women. How awful for you to see us becoming stronger and finding our true selves away from the stereotypes you men have created for us
I grew up in Florida but I own and operate a martial arts team in Hungary for a decade now. On a junior level many of my fighters have won the nationals in various weight classes and also won on AIBA/IBA tournaments. The amount of corruption we witnessed on these events were utterly disgusting from money laundering to all sorts of pandering and cheating. We started boycotting their shows in 2019 before the pandemic and my boxers turned to MMA or K-1. I knew it right there and then that soon Olympic boxing will be over because this organization is gona kill the sport and now it happened...Los Angeles will not have boxing in the program because of all this. IOC as you said ran the boxing in Paris as they had enough of IBA but from now on they do not wanna deal with none of this nonsense... So anyway, NOTHING the IBA claims can be taken as real, they lie for a living.
All the gullible fruit cups around me ran with this story literally seconds after Carini cried. Not the slightest research, investigation. Even with everything that's come to light since, they are still holding this position. This is a repeated theme.
@@tarnw3301Nope, they didn't. Even check the recent release from the IBA containing their meeting minutes from back in March. No mention of her being male then, either.
@@nzmetalhead male karyotype. They haven't been able to say "yes, he is a man" because his country demanded for the IBA to keep secrecy about the TWO lab results.
@@tarnw3301 her country would never allow that. The people on television, who are making you mad about something that doesn’t exist or affect you, are making you sound stupid.
From what I understand; women have testosterone too. I can speak from experience; i am a 66 yr-old woman and I am sick to death of plucking facial hair (more and more every year). When i was younger, facial hair? What’s that? As we women age, especially after menopause, estrogen levels drop significantly and testosterone levels begin to be more noticeable. Anyway, that’s my experience with estrogen and testosterone.
Everybody has testosterone. Women usually ten times less or so than men. But still testosterone plays an important part in muscle function, the fight and flight -response and also sexuality for both genders. Men also have a small levels of estrogen for similar reasons (both sex hormones are basically a cholesterol molecule with a slightly different 'handle' on it).
And a lot of women have naturally high testosterone levels, without being intersex It's interesting how, the people who insisted most vehemently that only women can give birth, when they wanted to exclude trans men from the conversation around reproductive health; now turn around and say that naturally high testosterone levels or having a y chromosome makes you biologically a man - while, of course, many intersex women with xxy (and some with xy) chromosomes have given birth too, alongside a ton of women (usually not intersex) with naturally high testosterone levels. Apparently women with polycystic ovarian syndrome (you know, a syndrome concerning the OVARIES) have now "gone through a too naturally male puberty" to compete in the women's category. Who would've thought.
This was hard to watch, because it made me realize that I've been part of the problem - how embarrassing. Thank you for your brilliant way of communicating hard topics such as this 👍
@@PhilWare1Yes it was a trans issue but also a misogynistic campaign. The way the discussion went it’s clear certain people are simply obsessed with trans females and see them everywhere. Also no hard evidence - just rumors and that as basis to question a woman’s femininity.😢
I’m the father of two trans men whom I absolutely love and whose rights I will fight to my last breath to protect. I was a little gutted when I heard a hero of mine, Richard Dawkins, speak against trans rights. The fact that my children grew up alongside Hermione, Ron, and harry has not helped either. So disappointing…
You’re one of the best Dads that ever Dadded, imho. 🏆😊 Your men will never know the disconnect of having reluctantly ‘supportive’ parents because they ‘have’ to be, these days. So keep Dadding the way you Dad. Imagine that - producing stable, well-loved adults!
You are not the only one who is disappointed. Rowling I already knew. Dawkins I just learned 😢 For the latter I m even more disappointed. Dawkins is a scientist who should know how important facts are 😮
Dawking is not speaking against trans rights. JK Rowling, to the best of my knowledge, has nothing against trans people either. She just does not want language to be crippled to the point of becoming unusable. Try not drinking the kool aid when it is offered to you.
@@coolcat23it’s not 2020 anymore. Her rampant transphobia is visible to everyone. So vile her rhetoric has become that she doesn’t even deny it anymore. Calling trans women men in dresses. Accusing them of being rapists and a danger to women for being born with a wiener, comparing hormone replacement therapy to gay conversion and claiming they’re the same, also saying that best cure for gender dysphoria is to go through with it (it’s eerie how analogous it is to telling gay people to grow out of their homosexuality). She is so obnoxiously despicable and disgusting that there isn’t even a place for her in hell.
They said that because thats exactly what it was. A consensual romantic relation between a young guy and an under age girl. I still consider that inappropriate and even immoral, but calling it rape is muddying the waters. Consensual sex can never be rape.
@@PMHaag The age of consent in Norway (where our convicted rapist is from) is 16. I looked it up to disprove your point. In his home country, a 12-year-old legally CAN'T consent, therefore it IS, by law, statutory rape. Whether or not the 12-year-old child said it was okay doesn't matter in the slightest. They are too young to actually know and understand the decision they are making. This is why we have age of consent laws. In a different vein, drunk people are also not actually able to give consent in many states in America. While those people are of the age of consent (hopefully), their state of mind is deemed such that despite being able to articulate an approval, they are not of sound mind, and therefore any consent they are perceived as giving is legally considered to not exist.
@@jul3249 Yes. In fact, I know that for sure because I have been in that exact position myself. I consended well considered and still stand by it. The ad hominum is very contributing. Does it make you proud to do that, having read my comment and thus knowing very well that it is not justified?
A previously unbeaten Russian, so the disqualification restored her record. That decision being made by another Russian without qualification of the methodology used for the reason sounds pretty suspect.
This whole thing infuriates me. Powerful people punching down. I would think Dawkins is better than this, but until he apologizes, I have to assume he's not
The irony is that there was a real transgender boxer at the Paris Olympic Games. Hergie Bacyadan was born female & transitioned to a male. He is a member of the Philippine Boxing team & boxed in the 70kg weight category. He lost to the top seed and was eliminated.
The point is he lost, because biology doesn't lie. I'm gonna be nice to him and use the correct pronouns, but he can't escape the reality that he is physiologically and genetically female.
We don't *_have_* any solid facts. That's the problem - Khelif was put in the "women's sports" category due to unknown test results (which are just as secret as the test results of the IBA), when the other one isn't "men's sports", but "everyone *_other than_* women's sports".
@@satyestru *_I_* don't know the criteria or tests that the Olympic Committe used. Source? My brain. If you know them, it'd be up to you to provide your sources.
@@Wolf-ln1ml Sorry, I might have misread your comment. I thought you were saying if she was intersex or something that she shouldn't be in women's boxing. Knee-jerk reaction. Sorry.
@@Wolf-ln1ml I meant by "Source?" "Where did you get the idea the categories are 'women's' and 'non-women's'?" (which I still do doubt). Overall, just kinda made an ass of myself.
He is proof of a genetic LEAP of mutation e.g creatures without eyes to with having eyes. If global warming succeeds to engulf us into a Waterworld, future humans would be all Phelps.
They have an impossibly-high bar for accepting that a trans man is a man, but they're more than happy to call a woman a man based solely on the fact that she has muscles...
I was going to say, these people are so insistent that someone who was assigned female at birth is actually a male... I've got some friends for them to meet, just for the gender validation. Telling my transmasc friends they'll never be real women? Phenomenal
I at first fell for the lie that she was a man, but a tiny bit of research showed me I was incorrect in my first assumption. This woman has excelled at her sport and should be applauded. I’m constantly fighting transphobia in my work place and it is exhausting, people spouting nonsense like “there are only two genders”, “what is it” etc. why can’t bigots realise the damaging and dehumanising language they use has an effect on people. Unfortunately people can’t be bothered to educate themselves, they are much happier espousing the Facebook experts narrative on things without realising these people know nothing about the subject they are talking about. Thank you for this video, and I did watch to the end.
I'm not an expert, I'm just listening to the people who ran the tests. Imane failed a karyotype test and doesn't have XX chromosomes. This was confirmed by two separate labs in two separate countries. Imane was able to compete in the Olympics because the Olympics were using passports to judge whether someone was a woman or not, and Imane is female on her passport. So the only debate you can actually have is the same debate people have been having for like a decade. "What is a woman? What is a female? Should non-females be allowed to box in the female division?" And those questions aren't anything you can be an expert about, those are just gut feelings and opinions.
@@angelmendez-rivera351 Ah yes, I forgot, anything the Russians do is Russian propaganda. We can't trust (((them))). I've got some space lasers to sell you, friend.
@@albertcastro3500the way people treat imane goes far above and beyond "caring for fairness". There'd been certified cheats in the olympics (the taking drugs type) who've been treated with mucn more respect than she has for mere allegations
7:42 idk man if I was judged on everything I did between the ages of 12-19 we might all cringe in unison but I most certainly would NOT be in prison. What the hell were YOU doing between those ages???
Excellent video. I hope Imane wins her lawsuit. She rose above poverty and misogyny to reach her dream only to be attacked by a billionaire because she doesn't think Imane is pretty enough to be a woman. This would be laughable if it weren't so cruel. I have long been a fan of Richard Dawkins, so his late-life transphobia is very disappointing.
If you listen to Dawkins carefully, you may realise that he is not a transphobic. There is a problem here with men wanting to gain fame and money by cheating, and the trick is "play in women's sports". And you have men identifying as women (some times without even surgery or any other action to back up their claim) to gain the legal right to paritcipate in games with women... It is one thing calling those men cheaters and another saying he is a "transphobic". Even trans people speak out about the problem of men creating and taking advantage of loopholes, that eventually bring problems to trans people in general. The problem is NOT trans people. The problem is people (men in particular) trying to early exploit a "hole in the system" to gain unfair advantage against their opposition (women, in this instance).
I agree with you. I thought letting Lia Thomas compete against women was outrageous. That's why in 2022 the IOC instituted a rule that prevented transgender females from competing in women's sports if they did not begin hormone conversion therapy by the age of 12. The problem with the accusation levied against Imane is that there is no evidence that she is either transgender or XY.
@@ThanosNikolopoulosbut the thing is that argument doesn’t apply to Iman case, so it makes it weaker. In the “best” case scenario, she is intersex and Rowling and the other ones are partially correct but still largely incorrect by referring to this case as a trans issue when it is absolutely not, even in that case
@@take-time how? You really don’t understand that her entire life she was seen as a woman right? Her being male would be news to the nation of Algeria.
@@n0etic_f0x "How?" - Some example of misinformation from RR in this video: - RR implies that JKR claimed that Imane is trans. He provides no evidence of this, and as far as I'm aware there is no evidence of this. JKR and Dawkins have both stated that they don't believe Imane is trans. - RR claims that JKR decided that Imane is male due to not looking feminine enough. JKR never made such a claim. - RR claims that the gender tests the IBA commissioned was testosterone based. In the publically available press statement from the IBA is says that the "athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination". "You really don’t understand that her entire life she was seen as a woman right?" The relevant consideration people have is not what the people around Imane thought, it's whether Imane is male. What people around Imane think isn't relevant. "Her being male would be news to the nation of Algeria." If Imane is male then both Imane and the Algerian national media have a vested interest in not revealing this information. Caster Semenya being male was almost universally obfuscated by the main stream media, and much of it does even to this day. If Imane is male it wouldn't be at all suprising to see the mainstream media do the same.
Thank you for mentioning PCOS. It’s a common condition, and yet so many people don’t know anything about it. The whole debate around Imane has been pretty tortuous for women with hormonal disorders.
I would like to see Richard Dawkins and Forest Valkai debate. I don't want to see a philosophical debate because Dawkins is a biologist but I want to see is another biologist take him to task on things he must already know
Except women and womanhood is not biological question. It is question of philosophical, political and even zeitgeist. I mean Afro American women were female from biological perspective yet arguments to not desegregate bathrooms, especially women's, were same as with trans people - "N*gro women resembles more man then women." "They are as agresive as white man" etc.
valkai has a great mind, is excellent on theistic topics, has excellent knowledge on biology but, unfortunately, is ideologically captured on this issue
If you think it's exhausting, try being a trans person. We are confronted with a massive flood of misinformed opinions and misinformed people in every part of our lives.
Yeah, online it's just a shitshow most of the time and offline it isn't much better. Trans women are now banned from international chess, because men are smarter than women and we are men? Oh and trans men loose their titles because I don't know... them competing in women's tournaments bevore transitioning is cheating?
RR at some point back in the day actually caught a lot of flack because he used to be one of those misinformed people. His first video on the topic of trans women in sports was kinda poorly researched, and not very favourable to trans people, and people were quick to point that out to him. So, unlike Dawkins for example, he took it down and uploaded an apology and a correction, because he realized he was wrong.
I watched it to the end and say, Hooorayyy! At a school I reach at in Australia, they held a free dress day (no uniforms) with the theme: Gender Bender. Plenty of jock boys came in dresses. They matched shoes, bags and jewellery. Some sweet girls came with beards and boots. Some came as aliens and some wore what they feel comfy in - pajamas, tiaras, gangsta do-rags etc.. and some wore uniforms. No problems. All fun. And they still did their work and went to classes, answering the roll to their names. It was glorious, and the student council raised about $1000 for more good times for students!
What kills me about this is the rock solid confidence of people claiming Imane Khelif has XY chromosomes, while the only source is an organization with ties to the Russian government that claims to have done a test they won't even publish after a Russian boxer was defeated by her.
Her camp literally came out and confirmed it all. "There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes, but she is a woman" www.lepoint.fr/sport/exclusif-jo-2024-imane-khelif-a-ete-aneantie-de-decouvrir-d-un-seul-coup-qu-elle-pourrait-ne-pas-etre-une-fille-09-08-2024-2567609_26.php
......and the rock solid confidence of those that claim she doesn't have XY chromosomes. Both sides are claiming with confidence but without clarity of the evidence no-one can know properly.
@@PhilWare1 The evidence is that the IOC allowed her to compete 🤦🏼♂️ fascinating how you think the IBA is a valid source of evidence, but not the IOC.
When you obsess on a certain topic long enough, you start to see it everywhere, whether it's there or not. Obsession isn't about reality; it's a vicious cycle that leads to self-delusion.
I'm so glad that my worldview doesn't depend on the good character of a person whose books I have enjoyed in the past, but has lately turned out to be incredibly foolish, uncivilized and thuggish.
@@neelsg Ha. I considered that I had laid down an ambiguity. I meant Dawkins. I have read the first 3½ of JK's books, but they're not great, so I don't take them seriously. I was thinking of The Blind Watchmaker and another book from Richard's earlier times.
I am Greek. I can leave here some names of Greek female athletes, that were great in their prime, and didn't look like men: Verouli, Patoulidou, Thanou... Go look at them in some photos. And then we can all understand that the "doesn't look female" argument is an offensive argument against women who were so dedicated and so good at their sports, that transformed their whole body to achieve the results they did. By the way, that is what men do too! Have you seen the bodies of weightlifters? Of swimmers? Of gymnastics? Of course they go for another kind of transformation, but in the end it is always the same: Transforming your body to achieve higher levels of results. The argument of "doesn't look female" is an insult to human beings pushing their bodies to the maximum of their capabilities as athletes.
@collyernicholasjohn 1.Not his. Hers. 2. which chromosome tests ? 3. The olympic committee knows less than us random commenters on RUclips? How plausible is that?
@@ThanosNikolopoulos Both were tested at independent accredited labs and both the male athletes were told by the IBA they’re not eligible for the female category. Both were given the opportunity to appeal but chose not to.
@@collyernicholasjohn The IBA is the most corrupt sporting body in the world. They fix fights and tests. 'Independent laboratory'? Reference? Thought not. WADA accredited? Thought not? Jog along champ.
@@collyernicholasjohn1) we don't know on record that there was a chromosome test. 2) the physique critique is poorly informed confirmation bias, so proves nothing.
I'm of two minds about the lawsuit. On the one hand, to sue for being accused of being trans does tacitly suggest that it's okay to treat trans people the way Khalif has been treated, since the premise is she's cis. But on the other hand, I can't think of any other way to hold these ghouls accountable, so...
Khalif mainly wants to sue because many people in her home country of Algeria are really transphobic and harass her just because some dinglewads assumed things about her.
I feel the same way. A lot depends on how the suit is framed. Is it based on the harrassment (based on incorrect and ideological assumptions) or explicitly a defamation suit for daring to call her trans? A nuanced but deeply important distinction. I hope it's the first.
Khalif mainly wants to sue because many people in her home country of Algeria are really transphobic and harass her just because some dinglewads assumed things about her.
One thing that doesn’t really get all that mentioned in this conversation is that there is absolutely some racist undertones to Imane being harassed. In the past, black women used to be not allowed to compete in women’s sports against white women because the standards, such as testosterone levels, only considered the more narrow range of white women. Of course, now we see the front face of the argument being trans women, although it all comes down to the same source, the white patriarchal system that determined that women should be “weak, fragile and gentile” and lighter-skinned, of course.
Dawkins has spent so much time criticizing religious beliefs he seems to have picked up a few and adopted as his own. Shaming, assuming, condemning, bullying yup seems they struck a chord in old Ricky Dawkins.
I'm looking at the former videos Stephen made criticizing Dawkins on this subject. The comments sections on those videos have all aged like milk. One of the comments says, and I quote, "Dawkins is simply correct. And that is simply obvious. Deal with it." The irony.
@@deltahalo241 - It disheartens me that members of the atheist community have embraced the pseudo-religion of gender ideology. Dawkins is absolutely spot on. As for Khelif, she may or may not be male. We literally don't know, although it would take her ten seconds to do a mouth swab to prove that she's female. She hasn't done it yet.
Maybe unpopular opinion, but the IOC has some culpability here too. During these Olympic Games the IOC had the perfect opportunity to set a new standard in fairness, by creating a science-backed system, that would level the playing field, and allow athletes from the entirety of the spectrum to compete fairly. Instead they went with the standard male-female subdivision and used passport entries to allot the atheletes to the "appropriate" group. I fully concur, that the word of the IBA isn't worth the air used to pronounce it, but the IOC needed to get in front of this issue, and they just didn't.
The IOC has no power over other countries. It's always the same with international organisms, countries don't like to gave them even a bit of sovereignty. Good luck convincing the USA that they MUST adopt a system developed by an international committee, when they have not yet adopted the metric system.
I don't totally agree. First off, they don't directly regulate requirements and eligibility for each sport. Every sport has determined their own, based usually on hormone levels and how long a person has been on HRT. The IOC's response was essentially, "Khelif met all requirements in order to compete in the women's division. We will not be commenting on her specific medical records as that is private information." The only additional response was regarding the IBA "tests" and they said, "The testing and results we've been presented are so flawed and nonsensical that they aren't worth considering." Kinda sounds like they were given a hand written note that said, "Trust me bro." The reality is that around trans folk and sport, it's an emerging science. And what is fair (as loosely defined in elite sport) could be different from sport to sport. The biological requirements for weight lifting could very well be different than say long distance running. All that said, the statistics say that trans women don't have a huge advantage or maybe even have a disadvantage. Since 2004 (when trans women were allowed in the Olympics) something like 5000 medals have been given out in women's events. Statistically then trans women should have won 25-100. And with the "huge advantage" they supposedly have, many more. In fact, hormonally transitioned women competing in women's event have won a grand total of... zero medals. Nada. Not one. Given the stats the question isn't, "Why do trans women dominate?" It is now, "Where are all the trans women?"
@@CorwinFound The problem was that having passed the buck on eligibility to each governing body, the IOC then fell out with the IBA for political reasons, and barred them from determining who should or should not compete at the Olympics. That might have been fine, except they did not themselves apply any sensible alternative criteria for entry into the women's category, despite having the test results that the IBA had previously provided, which had not been disputed by the two athletes concerned.
I'm very disappointed that RR didn't cover the IOC basis for admitting these athletes as women. Both sides of the argument need to be seen. If these women would not have been allowed to compete in athletics, say, but were admitted to boxing through a lack a rigour then this is a problem. Boxing is one of the most violent sports in the olympics and needs proper regulation.
@@leonais1 But there is no good basis to exclude these women. You're making an improper argument, holding two unequal valued statements to hold the same value... I believe this is called the fallacy of false equivalency.
The most telling circumstance about the whole situation is the fact that by a simple chromosome test all these speculations could be easily ended and the question clarifed. However, IOC and the boxers choose not to perform this. :) This to me, is circustancial evidence that the suspicions of XY chromosomes are well founded.
The only test she needed was already done at birth, she was AFAB and has never identified herself as anything other than female. The doctors when she was born saw a clam, not a sausage. That’s it. Proof complete. She no more needs to do that than she needs to prove she’s not a witch. She is already a woman to anyone who has any sense. She doesn’t need to prove anything to a bunch of bigoted haters, misogynists and transphobes and bullies.
chromosome tests are not simple ,people can be XX, XY, XXY , XYY .XO, XXX etc . and you couldn't tell by looking at them .Elementary school biology is not a medical degree.
@@francescafoot9739 True but Doctors in Biology (phd) know about these DSDs and whether people are male or female even if they unfortunately have a DSD
Wow. I'm surprised to find out she actually isn't trans at all. Putting all the usual bullies aside, even reputable newspapers in my country reported this as if she was trans. Scary example of how misinformation can spread.
If you had actually followed the story at the time the argument was ALWAYS about intersex and not trans. The pro trans lobby hijacked the situation and then the anti trans jumped on the bandwagon.
@@ExtremeMadnessX It's in the thing you responded to... reputable newspapers reported on it, and some people still have the idea that newspapers contain facts that aren't bought and paid for. So it would be surprising to find that they were full of shit
9:51 “Arm chair Endocrinologist” are perhaps some of the most terrifying words I’ve ever heard. No one should just look at anything endocrinology related and be like “Oh yeah! That looks fine.” with out extensive studies bc that shit is CONFUSING.
the thing that kills me the most about this whole thing is that she is a really good boxer and the opening she used to clock the Italian boxer was big enough she could load it all the way. it wasn't a matter of strength it was a matter of smart boxing, and well placed hands!
"I hope her lawsuit earns her a fortune, " why would you say that?you want that dude imane to get money from people because his feelings got hurt? screw you.
@@susanwjoh0re735 Just look at the difference between our comments. Which one seems to be most impacted by emotions? I can't see how my comment gave you any reason to think I was crying about something?
@@susanwjoh0re735 Imane is not a man. I am sorry that you have a mental illness preventing you from engaging with reality and trapping you in your own hallucinations.
Never mind insisting that her chromosomes are beyond dispute, I've seen people insisting that a diagnosis of 5-ARD is beyond dispute. And the chromosomes themselves don't confer an advantage, that's absolutely laughable. There are dozens of genes that play a role in sex development, both in utero and during puberty, such as SRY, AR, SOX9, and NR5A1, and those are just the ones I can name off the top of my head, and there are certainly more genes than the dozens we already know. And even if you did have access to someone's entire genome, it STILL wouldn't give you all the information you need. NR5A1 mutations plague my family, yet the exact same mutation presents wildly differently in XY individuals, from "completely fertile man" to "woman who, though without working ovaries, can probably carry children." Take AIS, which gets thrown around a bit. It's a spectrum (because people can be partially sensitive). If you had the genome and got a complete hormone profile and found high androgens, you STILL don't have all the information without a complete understanding of a person's androgen receptivity. And plenty of cases of androgen insensitivity aren't linked to mutations in any of the known genes, so you'd literally need to test androgen sensitivity directly. And that's just AIS. There just isn't a single perfect test, or even a combination of perfect tests, that can cover every possible edge case for neatly categorizing everyone, despite the unsourced and provably incomplete tables of DSDs constantly posted by transphobes on Xitter.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 Thank you, thank you for this! I know the ‘phobes won’t bother with it, but maybe the folks who are uncertain about the barrage of claims they’ve seen might. In any case, I’m among those who find it so helpful and reassuring to have someone spell out clearly elements of the sex and gender spectrum complexities instead of just noting that it is complex. To be clear: I’m a non-scientist, avid armchair reader and follower of this and other sciences; I’m also nonbinary and transmasculine-and sometimes wonder if I would fall somewhere on the wide spectrum of intersex variants if I was given all the tests and exams currently possible. That’s not gonna happen, and I don’t really care, but it’s a reminder that none of us really knows in the absence of such evidence…and it shouldn’t matter.
I mean, this is overcomplicating the issue, since the IBA test was made up to begin with. They are a corrupt organization that was replaced. Using them as a source is a non-starter.
Still, the litmus test of the IOC for deciding whether someone is a male or a female is whatever gender in his/her passport.. I mean, that's stupid. There has to be a genetic test!
@@ouwebrood497 I dunno, from what I saw on his appearances on piers Morgan show, he seems a bit of a pseudo intellect, maybe I don't know him that well to know for sure, but from what I've seen Richard isn't much better
However, there is a good reason for testing women athletes for testosterone levels: remember the swimming scandal when the entire feminine team from China was disqualified because of... testosterone doping?
But that tests for synthetic test and anabolic not for having an above average level. 9xs out of 10 all athletes have higher than average levels. That's why they're super athletes.
@@russellward4624 The moment when we bring the "genetic differences" discussion in sports, we may as well throw away the scouting for talents and we can easily transform the Olympic Games in a sort of Eurovision or America Got Talent show. By all accepted criteria in sports, Imani Khelif is a woman and was born with a particular combination of genes, just like ANY OTHER champion! That's what scouting for talents is for! Winning a competition is not a democratic process by definition.
@@AlbertGuilmont "Woman" in sports is a protected class due to physical dimorphism inherent in male and female Homo sapiens. (Otherwise, why have this category at all?) The "particular combination" required to qualify for the "woman's" category should be "XX". If the individual is XY and is found to have male gonads then they are biologically male, not female. ...So let's see the DNA test.
There's a good reason for testing ALL athletes for testosterone levels, not just female ones...the majority of those caught using testosterone doping have been male. One also has to keep in mind, of course, that testosterone levels by themselves don't determine sex - there is a spectrum of the amount any person's body produces, and there is overlap between males and females. Some women naturally have more testosterone than other women - some men naturally have more testosterone then other men - some women naturally have more testosterone than some men - life is like that.
njhoepner, I agree that males and females have a range of testosterone levels but they do not overlap. Males have up to 10 times that of a female. The lowest male reading of testosterone is surprisingly after they stop taking it illegally. Their body gets lazy in producing testosterone, relaying on the illegal supply and it takes a while to get back to normal. Even so it never dips into the female range.
Everyone is so wrong on this case... The main problem here is that we DO NOT KNOW if this athlete can fairly compete. Claiming, that it's "enough to look at her" is equally stupid as claiming, that it's "enough to look at her passport". The problem is, that the first stance is expressed by some random individuals online and the second one is the official position of the Olympic Committee. PS. One can be both for gender-testing in female categories and allowing criminals to participate in Olympics after they had done their time. What a stupid "argument", I'm disappointed in Stephen.
Agreed! And one more thing: are you (not you, but one side :) ) telling me that in the entire history of the Olympics not woman with XY chromosomes ever participated? Why is this a problem now?!
@@Kentchangar There has been some Olympic scandals involving sex verification for decades, it's nothing new. This case became boosted by the general insanity around "self-iding" as a woman, thus hurting everyone involved - athletes, trans people and the public. It's so difficult to find anyone, who is sensible and measured around those things there days.
@@Qq-xs1fz Yup. Everyone has just picked one side and goes along with everything that side says. Or, at least, that's what it looks like online and with content creators. The only ones that I've personally seen that are on neither side (aka they support some issues on both sides) are Breaking Points.
@@Kentchangar BP are at least trying to pretend... They too often fall into the trap of the left side joining the critique of Dems, but the right side unable to really critic Reps. Or maybe it's just my dislike of Saagar... Ryan and Emily seem to be quite balanced. What really scares me is how the left is scaring their own into submission. I remember how years ago Stephen here was denounced by some for his (now retracted) views on this very issue. More recently Ana Kasparian was called all the awful names for not liking to be called a "birthing person" and TYT seems to be quite cautious with any trans-related reporting there days. This is all going to blow up into out faces.
Her father offered to show her birth certificate, it's illegal to be trans, provide gender-affirming care, and transition in Algeria. Just admit idiots fell for the lie.
This smelled fishy from the start, no real proof of her being XY or whatever they were claiming. Just: "Oh, we can't say, but it's true, honest!" The only weird thing on the other side is Imane not saying what she was accused of and why it's wrong.
The IBA made the claim she is XY and failed a gender test, she can easily prove them wrong with providing her own results or contesting the IBA disqualification which she did not
Why should she? No, really. She lives in a country where being transgender is illegal, and the legal standing of being intersex is probably… uncertain. So what, exactly, does she have to gain?
I first heard about this a few days into the brouhaha. Basically a headline like, "Algerian boxer accused of being trans." That's all I had to hear to smell something fishy. Yes, Algeria has trans folk but it isn't legal. They are horribly oppressed (along with all other LGBT people) and there is _no_ way the Algerian government would send a trans person to represent them at the Olympics. All that said, I have been impressed with Khelif and her team. Never in their responses have they thrown trans people under the bus. They've basically said, "We support all women having the opportunities of sport and Khelif is a woman and was born so." They, even coming from a country with a history of anti-LGBT, have been far classier and accepting than the ideologues that jumped all over her. And maybe all of this will help broaden Algerians' minds on queer issues. Nothing like seeing a national hero getting oppressed like a queer person to broaden empathy for queer folk.
@@albertcastro3500 One of the reasons the IBA was dropped from Olympic certification was that they did not provide any appeals process for any of their decisions. So pointing to her not contesting it is at best ignorance of the situation, and at worse dishonest.
@@albertcastro3500She is sueing. Do you think she and her team would do that if they don't have the goods? Right now, sharing medical data, especially since IOC said "She passed all our requirements," would just negatively impact their suit. Rowling, Musk and others are going down.
I was most annoyed by the purposeful misgendering/use of male pronouns. Even having XY chromosomes wouldn’t make her a man. Sex is not purely defined by chromosomes. Calling her “he” and a man when she is, at most, intersex, is just ignorant.
@@SamS-uv2qlBecause there are several markers of sex. Chromosomes are only one, and often they conflict. When they do, we call that intersex. So if she had mostly female markers, but male chromosomes she would be at most intersex.
@AogNubJoshh it's only words friend.... go step outside of the West where slavery is alive and well, to be Gay will get you the dealth penalty and in places where food and water are a luxury.... In planetary terms, misgendering is a nothing....
The tests should be the same for everyone and they are pretty clear. The problem is that the Olympic committee does allow men to compete beside women; notably in weightlifting, so forgive me if I don't feel like they're operating honestly.
I know Martin Niemoller’s quote is often overdone, but here I think it applies - “First they came for the trans people, but I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a trans person…” etc. I’m a “non-masculine” man with a slight build and have had my chromosomes occasionally questioned years ago, in passing. But nowadays my nonconformity to the masculine ideal could end up being a real problem for me. If I were in the public spotlight (thankfully I’m not), I would expect to be “transvestigated”. In the Muskian-Trumpist far-right world model, any person who doesn’t conform to stereotyped cartoonish ideals of masculine men and feminine women is a target for persecution. Not being a trans person won’t save you, as Imane Khelif has found out.
So we are supposed to believe that Khelif could have put an end to all these terrible and wrong accusations a long time ago simply by proving to have XX chromosomes (possible via blood sample or cheek swab), but decides not to do it. I find this very, very unlikely, but would be happy to be proven wrong.
@@hamster4618 If the tests were done by an accredited laboratory, why would anyone not believe them? If something other than XX or XY, it would be the presence of one or more Y chromosomes which would be the determining factor. However, those variations usually come with significant health problems, which Khelif does not seem to have.
@@juvenalsdad4175 right, and which would that be? And are you sure they would? Trump doesn’t seem to believe anything he doesn’t want to believe, regardless of evidence. The courts are all rigged, even if they have judges appointed by him. Dawkins would probably accept the outcome. But out of curiosity, since when do those in the midst of a gossip attack be the ones to prove the “innocence”? Why not start with the evidence for the claim rather than having to justify your sex to some stranger? Why does the IOC believe Khelif? Why haven’t Algerian authorities or indeed the rather conservative population demand a sex-check? Perhaps it’s one giant Algerian conspiracy to get a male in the Olympics fighting a female, but that seems odd to me. I could imagine she doesn’t have straight up xx or xy chromosomes. I can even imagine that popped up late in life as it does. So let’s get to that question by Matt Walsh he never answers himself: “what is a woman?” For about 550,000-750,000 years of homo sapien existence people had to do with what they saw: external or internal genitalia. These days that’s not enough, because these days we need a chromosome test to count x-ses and y’s. And, as you say matter of accounting: how many of each. Some will say anything with a y.
I don't get it. Why not just demand a DNA test to determine the sex of every athlete? Costs around 30€. We test for so many shit, no reason to not do it here as well.
@@guilhermecastro9893 bro, if you plan to compete in international tournaments you do this one time in you life. It will not change any more. Even if you just do it for the Olympics: you know half a year in advance that you will be there. Trust me, I'm organizing such events. Time is not an issue.
Yes. Agreed. We can check if a sprinter had a cough remedy 3 months ago. But checking someone's sex is just too difficult, expensive and time consuming?
1) I box and know that there had been complaints about Imane Khelif for years. This was before the IBA tests and their involvement. Female boxers, coaches, and boxing organizations filed complaints about Khelif being a man ever since he started in the adult womens boxing circuit. Look at his fight with Brianda Cruz from a year ago. He almost massacred her, and he's walking into her punches without flinching and with his guard down. He's not afraid of Cruz and can withstand her punches. He's also holding back a lot. That's a red flag. 2) This was handled privately initially. The IBA tested twice and found Khelif was a biological man. Khelif was given the opportunity to retest at the IBA's expense. Khelif refused. Khelif could have appealed and did so initially and then dropped the appeal and so he was banned from the world championships. This was over a year go when these tests were done, so Khelif knew about his genetics at least in 2023. 3) Khelif applied for the Olympics anyhow despite the genetic tests and despite being banned from the World Championships. The IBA sent a letter with the test results to the medical team for the IOC a year ago to warn them about Khelif. This was not done publicly, but a private letter with the test results. The IOC didn't respond and allowed Khelif in. They said they only use passports to verify biological sex. 4) When Khelif boxed Carini and Carini didn't last in the ring because her nose was broken and she was bloody, people knew Khelif was a man. His build, the blows to her face, and blood within 46 seconds are red flags of abnormal strength. The IBA was then forced to do a press releae on their website saying they told the IOC a year ago, and Khelif knew a year ago as well. This was now a safety and dangerous game that the IOC and Khelif were playing. 5) The IOC president, Thomas Bach, did a press conference and disregarded the IBA and their results. The IOC said they don't do testing at all. They only look at the passport. The IBA was then forced to do a press conference in Paris because Khelif was getting ready to fight more women and potentially seriously injure or kill a woman. Even the VP for the World Boxing Organization came out and said Khelif and several others were biological men. 6) The IOC has done nothing (not one single test) since and allows Khelif and other biological men to compete in a woman' s boxing competition. Khelif and his team try to drum up sympathy and do interviews and bring more attention to their so-called "private" situation. If it's private, then why does Khelif do interviews and constantly post on social media about it? 7) Khelif dresses, walks,talks, and sits like a young adult man. Khelif literally wears men's suits, clothing, and jewelry. It's so blatant, and Khelif posts pics on his Instagram flaunting it. He doesn't care because the IOC isn't stopping him. This is essentially what happened. Everyone knew, including Khelif, and they are not going to stop until a woman is killed.
Regardless of whether or not she is a woman, surely the question is 'does her condition give her an unfair advantage in women's sports?' We separate sport based on gender for a reason.
Unconfirmed condition. A condition of dubious origin. An condition based in an unfounded rumor. She passed the Olympic tests to be there in the first place. I am not going to take the Russian mob's "trust me bro" explanation
You cannot solve the fact that sports are inherently about some people having advantage over others. The issue is that what we consider "fair" is completely arbitrary. Is it fair that no short person has a chance at competitive basketball? Or that people with longer legs and shorter arms stand no chance at swimming...? Or even that some athletes have access to top notch training and support while others don't? We could, for example, claim that taller people have a biological advantage over shorter people in basketball and proceed to claim tall people should not be allowed to compete against shorter people - is that something you would defend? Another example is the fact that black people have, on average, an advantage in sprinting over white people. Should there be a segregated category? If this last example sounds worse than the first, it is because it resonates with societal ills. I'd argue that we should not have sports (something not nearly as important as human rights and wellbeing) mimic societal ills. We can have, for boxing, a direct measure of strength, or a proxy for it (added to the weight categories we already have), or even previous performance in the sport...Speaking of that, did you know that the boxer in question lost 9 times? Anyway... There are many options that do not hinge on sex/gender and the extremely complex diversity of intersex people.
@@00Platypus00 To summarise, you are saying we should put an end to all female sport, just to accommodate for the fraction of the population that don't conform to gender norms. This is absurd. Separating based on sex means both sexes have an equal chance to excel. We want to watch the most physically capable athlete _within_ each sex succeed. This is why it would ruin sport if we started separating basketball based on height, or weightlifting based on strength. Imane khelif presents an extremely rare problem. Yes, she is a woman. But her very unique genetic condition gives her the same advantages that men hold over women. This very rare case, however, should not convince us to throw the baby out with the bathwater
Its really sad what a sell out RR has become. The boxing federation did not one, but two karyotype tests at accredited labs in 2 different countries & Khalif is an XY male. Without question hes been through male puberty, probably 5 alpha reductase deficiency with internal testes. Most DSD in sports are males anyway, due to the advantage it incurs. Having lived where he was born his parents certainly registered his birth themselves as femsle with no medics involved.
I’ve studiously stayed away from any RR content related to gender, because I want to keep my respect for Stephen and his efforts to uphold rationality in questions we both think are important. Made an exception for this video and ended up exasperated. This is not how Stephen usually operates when religious claims are discussed, this is below his standard. First of all, just because people around public and social media jumped to the wrong conclusions about Khelif’s sex/gender, it doesn’t mean that her inclusion in the women’s category was the right decision. Both Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting were disqualified for having unfair advantage over other female athletes and therefore not being fit to compete in the women’s category. The results say nothing about their gender, and whatever the underlying reason for this decision was, I agree that it’s not a reason to call either of them a man. They have lived their life as a woman and they should be respected as a woman, but they certainly should not compete as a woman, because an unfair advantage or a performance enhancing substance is equally against the rules of any sport, regardless of it coming from an outside source or from a developmental disorder. Perceived levels of femininity have nothing to do with it, but muscle density, lung capacity and a long list of other physical attributes affected by some anomaly definitely does. A woman’s well-toned upper body is not the same as someone’s who has gone through a partial or full male puberty, and Stephen surely knows that, because he made a pretty deep dive on it after receiving a brutal backlash for some statements on trans athletes. I find it pretty dishonest of him to talk about expectation of lady-like appearance (in a boxing ring, no less), instead of the real issue. As for Khelif losing to other women before, well, an advantage is not a guaranteed ticket to the gold medal, there are countless other factors in play, from the intensity of training before the match to the ability to focus at the time. Just like all Michael Phelps’ world records have been broken by now, lost competitions are not an argument to support fairness. Stephen ridicules the IBA for not disclosing the nature of the test and its results but come on. Everyone with half a brain must know that they are not allowed to publish this kind of sensitive, personal, medical information, since it would be a clear breach of international data protection laws. You know who could disclose it? Imane Khelif alone. So, let’s try to persuade her to show her hand, why don’t we? If you find it unsavoury to do so, you should not demand the same indiscretion from the Association, either. Khelif and Lin were informed about the reasons of their disqualification, and they both accepted it as legally bonding decisions - Lin without appeal, and Khelif after withdrawing her initial appeal. The bottom line is, even if they did not know about their condition before for any reason (which I seriously doubt), both athletes were fully aware of their unfair advantage by the time they entered the competition in Paris. While I understand how devastatingly tragic it is to learn about a disqualifying circumstance after long years of hard work to be successful in a field, life has no obligation to be fair to us. Everyone is responsible for doing the right thing on their own. I have no respect for gold medal winner athletes who don’t compete on even playing field. And finally, dismissing the performed test and its results on the ground that the IBA got banned from governing boxing events for corruption and their Russian connections makes zero sense. Not any of those have the slightest impact on the applied science involved in such testing, does it? It’s like saying that Schrodinger’s work as a physicist is any less valuable because he kept knocking up women left and right, including an underage girl he used to tutor. If someone can show the slightest motivation that would indicate a falsified test result for some random Algerian and Taiwanese competitors, let’s hear it, but keep it in mind that the tests were performed at the explicit request of other boxing teams, that there were two other unnamed female boxers tested at the same time as Khelif and Lin, and the other two have passed. And why would anyone accept a false result without appeal, anyway? For a closing thought, I’d like to share a conspiracy theory of my own. I have a strong suspicion that the two disqualified athletes were allowed to compete and deliberately put in the spotlight for the sole purpose of stirring up exactly the kind of reaction we can see. Some ideologists see it fit to sacrifice the ancient traditions of fair competition in the Olympic Games, just to have the opportunity to point at the gender critical side with glee, exposing them for the unreasonable fools they are for attacking innocent women. It’s kind of disappointing to see Stephen obediently marching to someone else’s tune, instead of using his own (impressive!) brain power, like he usually does.
@@Vee-Hive He's burned himself once and perhaps he's a bit over-cautious about going against the loudest voices to ask some questions he would otherwise. I keep hoping that with time the pendulum will swing back again. :)
i see your pointz it’s a very valid take. But it’s so conveniet thwt nobody talked about this unfair advantage when she competed last time or the fact she doesn’t have a perfect record and has in fact been beaten before multiple times by other women. So why now is it a problem. Again, RR makes good points on the fact some people are born with genetic advantages. Michael phelps was literally born part amphibian but nobody said a word. Biological differences and hormonal differences are indeed also more common in women of colour and women with disorders so where do we draw the line.
To be strictly fair to her - and in light of some of the things she said before the match I'm not sure she deserves it - she did refuse to accept the IBA's money.
@@DaraelDraconis Well, this isn't about her, but more so about the IBA. The fact that the IBA did this kills whatever remaining credibility they had left, if they had any left at all.
@@littlecatfeet9064 I wouldn’t like to go there but the very fact that podcasters who know no more biology than I do are pretending that Dawkins is somehow wrong is just embarrassing. I realise they know their demographic and they have to keep their audience but ten thousand millennials saying one OAP is wrong is not an argument. Stephen knows this too, of course, but he has to maintain the façade for the gang. I can’t even watch him, Dillahunty or Valkai anymore.
@@jezdavis1865 I suppose the video he did a few years ago about trans “women” and sports advantages, and the huge backlash he received, let him know that he had a nice little business and it would be a shame to lose it. But yes, I can’t watch any “atheists” who embrace this quasi-religious, cultish ideology.
I remember a picture/clip of a bodybuilding contest some 30+ years ago. It had a text along the lines: “the women are the ones wearing a bikini top”. And that was pretty much all the difference you could see.
So just to be clear, Imane has gone through this before, and not without controversy. Attempting to ideologically wash this based on attempting to stand on the comments that she is a he, is a bit disingenuous. The reason why so many controversies which Imane has faced throughout her career is due to failing the chromosome tests. Also her dad’s statements on raising her as a girl didn’t help either. The reason the tests failed, is because she is more likely a hemaphrodite. This has more to do with the testing that happened before the Olympics and it seems like a lot of people are caping for clout on RUclips and through the media. Very interesting. I do believe it’s unfair, but calling it speculation is wild. Simply because you didn’t get enough information doesn’t mean not everyone else did.
Fighting sports are arguably terrible, and even though I have a guilty habit of watching them, to argue Carini could've been killed is a statement that applies to every single fight match ever.
Double-jointedness as most people think of it is not a thing, I.e. two joints where most people have one. There is a condition called Joint Hypermobility but this is generally painful and, I would think, detrimental to athletic performance.
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Be careful, remember how you were treated as a Heretic by the left a few years back for criticism of trans sports?
Google Lucia Rijkers and look at her arms. During Her kickboxing days, she was sparring in the second dojo and 10 minutes in the guy she was training with was knocked out. Her nickname was Lady Tyson. Imane Khelif has been training longer than many male boxers and if you ask me, way longer than the Italian girl.
stephen, why do you keep mentioning trans when discussing khalif ?
virtually no one that is critical of khalif and has a good handle on the issue is acussing them of that.
the general consensus is that khalif has some form of DSD.
you would know this, right ?
by continually mentioning trans in relation to khalif, it could be argued that you are engaged in strawmaning.
and as a result, bad faith argumentation.
[edit - there are far more comments in 'newest' than here in 'top'. because yt knows better than you]
@@haydenwalton2766 the video is about Dawkins and Rowling who were very much accusing Khelif of being a trans woman.
Can you do something with ContraPoints? I think that would be a well informed discussion.
I find the “woman punched in the head” wording a bit hyperbolic when referring to a punch each other in the head contest.
But not one in which men and women compete against each other.
@@SamS-uv2ql Well good thing that didn't happen
I find all these combat sports depraved. MMA especially so. I see 'to-the-death' coming back to society soon...it's a certainty it would be the most popular sport since ancient Roman times. And Joe Rogan would be sitting gleefully at ring-side.
@@SamS-uv2ql and no men and women were competing with each other so that’s a moot point
@@imacmill I’m in where do I sign up for pay per view
remember Joanne went by JK so she wouldn't be judged as a woman in a male genre of writing
Yep, she identified as a male writer funnily enough.
And don't forget how she still publishes as Robert!
Yeah,& now men are women now apparently?weird huh?,But at least she’s a REAL fiction author right?🤡\(. (. )/
Calling it now: JKR is trans and in denial. The male/androgynous pen names are just one of many signs.
Seriously? When Margaret Weis is as successful as she is without needing to pretend to be a man? Puhlease.
For all the people who think that bigotry can’t affect you because you’re not t part of the affected group, let this whole ridiculous situation be a warning to you.
Bigotry has no bounds. It will eventually spill over onto you.
Yep, that's why social justice garbage needs to be put to rest.
Tired of all the bigots claiming they're not while admitting that they are and demanding you must be worse than their narcissistic selves.
I know of a cis woman who was murdered by a man because he thought she was trans and a man who was murdered because he defended a trans person who was being attacked by a bigot. Hatred effects everyone.
The names of the people I mentioned are: Dionne Peacock (59 years old) and Collin Smith (32 years old). May they rest in peace.
@Anglomachian you are right, sadly this push on identity politics has amplified rascim. In the UK, most mainstream folk used to judge gender and colour blind(most people).
Now we are told we are a nation of racist whose country was built through slavery. And we are encouraged to see everybody through the lens of colour or gender. The bigots have managed to turn many neutral folk who never bothered into folks who only see race and gender now..... shocking
And this is exactly how it will happen too. They will make a mistake, and because their self-image is dependent on them never being wrong they will double down instead of allowing themselves to experience humility.
@@LilFeralGangrel There are no cis people stop with your bullshit made up words!
I grew up playing sports from a very young age. I did ballet in my kindergarten years, swimming and tennis in my primary school, and I added short distance running in my junior high years. Because of this, I was teased at school, in my neighborhood, and even at home for looking too masculine. Fortunately for me, I looked up to Florence Griffin Joyner and surrounded myself with women who did not live according to the social expectations of women.
Does it still affect how I feel about my appearance? To a certain extent, it does, but learning to love and accept myself the way I am has lessoned the effects of being teased for not looking "feminine enough."
But this experience is also another reason why transphobia affects women too. The truth is that these people are not really trying to protect women. Rather, they are trying to protect the ideals they hold with regards to sex and gender. "Women are supposed to be weak or feeble". That's why a physically fit woman is perceived to be masculine.
All Olympian women are exceptionally fit, but sports are still divided into male and female. Why do you think that is? How long would you guess it will take for a woman to beat Usain Bolt’s 100 and 200 metre records, never mind FloJo’s? Men have 165% of women’s punching power, so don’t you think it would be good for Khelif to prove she’s a woman and has no advantage?
Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting have not won all the competitions, which means that other women have defeated them. Imane Khelif has been defeated by several women in games such as 2021 Tokyo Olympics, she was defeated by Irish athlete and missed the top three.
Lin Yu-ting has also been defeated by women several times. 2021 Tokyo Olympics, she was defeated by Filipino athlete. If she had a competitive advantage as a male, she would have been a victor all the way.15 years, why would she have to train herself so hard even during her menstrual period? the New Delhi Boxing Championship in 2023, she won a bronze medal, then IBA said she is male?! Why did a male only win a bronze medal in women's boxing but not a gold ?
The so-called test was carried out by the corruption association, and even the people involved never got the results. Before believing IBA, better take a look at what it has been accused of and who is behind it
@@Canon50178 They should take a non-IBA sex test and clear their names then.
@@littlecatfeet9064
1) Is the Olympics hosted by the IOC or you?
2) The IOC has endorsed the athletes (all tests passed). Any question, one should question the IOC who is responsible.
3) By what law, by what right, by what international etiquette, should anyone on earth ridiculously prove themselves to you?
@@simba5366 1). Maybe I should host the Olympics, given what a shambles this Olympics was. Gross opening ceremony, men in women’s sports, triathletes in hospital after swimming in the Seine? Not many people could make it worse.
2) The IOC sex tests were rigorously applied, using…looking at the two athletes’ passports (and probably the two Zambian women’s soccer players) and saying that if it has an F on sex, whether or not that’s changed, that’s enough for them. They didn’t want to offend any of these men at the same time as their affiliated agency, WADA, is able to do “whereabouts” drug testing, meaning drug testers can show up unannounced at any time at the place you’re usually at to take a sample. If you’re usually home but not when they show up that’s a mark against you. But you’re saying easy sex tests are the real human rights issue. Sure, buddy.
3) They don’t need to prove themselves to me. They need to prove themselves to all the women they beat to get to their gold medals, and to the parents worldwide who have to decide whether or not to stop their daughters from playing sport for their safety or encourage their sons to cheat in girls’ and women’s sports just to get a medal.
“Those are man’s arms” bro do you not realize that everyone at the Olympics are the BEST athletes in the world and are essentially freaks of human nature, they aren’t supposed to look like everyday people because they go above and beyond what average people do for athleticism
Yeah that guy is really really weird. I had this misfortune of him being thrown at me through an algorithm.
Seems to make fun of left wing women using their appearance as the punch line. Nasty guy
And he's got "woman's arms"
Its worse that that, go google female bodybuilders, crossfit athletes...dear god, Women Gymnast's will put most mens arms to shame, thst guy is a freaking tool, and not the sharp kind.
That dude would have a heart attack if he saw a women like MMA fighter Gabi Garcia or literally the hundreds of female bodybuilders.
There's a decent argument to be made that high level athletes of all sorts are basically freaks of nature. You kind of have to be in most sports to make it to that level since its all so close. So, sports basically end up being a selection mechanism for who has genetic advantages of some sort. Which means you get "freaks". Having a little more lung capacity, or denser muscle fibers or being a bit taller can give you just the sort of edge you need to move up and compete at that level. And, at some point, you just can't make up for it with training. Not to say training isn't important and can't even things up alot, but for that last little edge to win, some sort of genetic advantage is what's needed.
Which is why dividing sports up into men's and women's is silly. We really should be asking what we want out of this stuff. If what we're really after is the best, then what we're going to get is "freaks" the rest of us can't hope to ever measure up to, no matter how hard we work. Maybe we should think about some way to level the playing field so genetic advantages (combined with training, of course) don't just mean a victory. And while we're at it, get rid of the silly men vs women thing. If a woman can compete well with men, then she absolutely should. If you have men who are very good at what they do, but just don't have the genetics to be "top tier", why shouldn't they compete with women?
The amount of people who fell/feed into misinformation in this situation is mind boggling. And a lot of these people were “facts over feelings” types.
Yeah and many of them corrected themselves.
Right wing feelings don't care about facts
@@zonatedspore97acamas I’ve found the opposite.. everyone on FB I saw post originally just stopped bringing it up and left their original post up
@@zonatedspore97acamasAnd many are still perpetuating it to this day!
I've concluded that opinions don't care about the facts
He says he never seen a woman with arms that big. As an NPC competitive bodybuilder, I have seen WAY bigger.
There were women with bigger arms in the same competition. Some of the other Women's Boxing Olympic contestants had way bigger arms than Imane. Which means if that streamer is telling the truth he didn't even watch the sport he's trying to have an opinion on.
Women with arms this big are everywhere. Even influencers right here on youtube - check out Caroline Girvan, to name just one. But of course the guy knows that, and is simply spouting off hoping no-one will notice.
It's like, dude is just outing himself as never paying any attention to women's sports before.
I went to college with a chick that was a power lifter and she was absolutely jacked.
Like, I'm 6'4" 195lbs and I climb trees with Chainsaws tied to my waist. I still wouldn't for a second want to tango with her.
The quartering doesn't see any women... even his wife
I have a customer that is clearly male, he dresses as a woman, he gets a lift to my shop from his wife. I’m saying he but he may identify as she. I don’t know and I don’t ask. I serve the customer with the materials I am asked to supply and take the money. We have a laugh and a joke together sometimes. I don’t care what he identifies as, and he’s not harming me, my staff or my other customers. He or she is welcome in my shop any day of the week.
As a former construction worker, I’m always proud of my kind, respectful, and tolerant colleagues within the sector and related industries. I hope you have a great day, and many more to follow
Can you provide theaddress of your shop champ. So I can avoid ever going there. Your post is a pompous, arrogant pile of garbage.
That’s fine, but he’s still a male. You shouldn’t have to pretend through language that he’s a woman.
@@larschristianalm as English might not be your first language, I’ll be careful what I say about your understanding of it. I’ll just remind you that I never pretended he or she was anything. I said I didn’t care what he or she was. Calling him he or she was me declaring that what ever he thinks of himself as is fine with me.
@@larschristianalm Champ i am pretending through language that you are an intelligent human being. LOL
Imane only started being a problem as she started wining, in the Tokyo Olympics she lost and nobody batted an eye.
Well yeah even if it was true that she was trans that would only be a problem if she was winning
@@GoldenMechaTiger it's a lose/lose situation😔
I agree… she should have been disqualified entirely independent of her performance.
It's notable that the supposed "tests" she "failed" only came up at the world's after she beat an undefeated Russian, an event overseen by the Russian lead, now defunct IBA. Tests never seen, no details, and apparently never actually done.
@@ramigilneas9274 - For what reason?
6:44 I have spent my life since 9 years old being told I’m not girlish enough and look like a man. I am physically more capable than most men too. I am built, broad shoulders, tall, big hands, big feet…… oh yeah, only described as big because the expectations for what a woman is doesn’t include actual women, just fantasies.
I can't tell you how much I long for a world where feminine weakness is not expected to be the default nature of women. I get called a misogynist on the regular for expressing my genuine admiration for women who reject the socially imposed and entirely constructed _dainty_ persona.
You be you. I've got your back.
@@TestUser-cf4wj Clueless.
Culture often creates cages - and then culture warriors come in to guard the cages and make sure the doors stay locked, and wail about the end of the world if the doors are ever opened.
I come from a family with broad shoulders and even women nearly no (small) waist. The amount of times I got thrown out of women's bathrooms when I was younger and much more androgenous than now (I'm almost 60) I can't count. In my 40s I got wider and got a something like a feminine figure. But even now, I could pass as a man if I wanted to.
This whole "movement" is hurting everyone. Which is more reason to fight for all women (and men) and against discrimination.
@@TestUser-cf4wj thanks
Bro...I got into an argument with this dude who posted the La Pont interview as proof Khalief is a man...I read it and said that "no...this is literally nothing, in fact it goes against your point" and you know what they said? "Imane Khlief doesn’t have fallopian tubes or a uterus. If he did, he would display the results of ultrasounds showing female (partial) internal anatomy. Of course, he has not done so. We know why. He can’t."...this is where we are at; randos online demanding pictures of a woman's uterus to prove their sex...just insanity.
You think that's bad my conservative gf thought this person was pro after birth abortions the TLDR version is she refused to watch the whole 8 minute video in context and said the they them alphabets changed the words on google then after I called her out she said I have the freedom to lie 😂
And no she's not insane it's only political shit that she acts unhinged it's the trump cult baby they got another one
@@Spencerwalker21run
I heard a discussion about the condition that Imane might have. But this was based on the IBA story which itself is shady. The problem is that given the range of atypical sex-related conditions in human beings, there need to be clearer guidelines on what exactly disqualifies a person from competing as a woman, i.e. external genitalia, internal reproductive organs, hormone levels, etc. This opens athletes up to an invasion of privacy for sure. But that is to be expected when competing at the highest international level.
@@Spencerwalker21 You might want to look for a new gf. The one you have is defective.
"These are mans arms!"
My dude, have you seen Katie Ledeckys arms??? Her shoulders???
How about literally any of the female powerlifters?
Jesus, my guy.
Good Lord, so Ledecky is a dude????????
Boxer Joana Nwamerue who trained with Khelif:
“Khelif has some kind of internal issues. But he is a man. I will stay by my words until he/she does a test to prove to the world that he/she is a WOMAN. But we all know that won’t happen. Khelif’s teammates came to me and told me ‘Khelif is a woman and just lives high in the mountains with her relatives and parents and so there may be a change in her testosterone or chromosomes and the like. So myself and my coach watched Khelif and I said ‘that can’t be possible.’ Everywhere has people living in the mountains. It’s absurd.”
Mexican Brianda Tamara, against whom Khelif boxed in 2022:
“When I fought with her, I felt very out of my depth; her blows hurt me a lot. I don’t think I had ever felt like that in my 13 years as a boxer, nor in my sparring with men. Thank God that day I got out of the ring safely, and it’s good that they finally realized that he is a man.”
don't worry, he's a far right incel so it's not like he has actually seen that many women
This story is such a great example of how little evidence is necessary to confirm a bias, and what bothers me more, the unshakable calcified confidence of folks that are repeatedly proven incorrect.
The evidence is out there, really just shocking that RR didn't show the IBA saying Imani has XY, or taking Abt Imani not providing any results to contradict the claims.
@@albertcastro3500the IBA doesn't work with the IOC anymore due to corruption and denying things they aren't allowed to deny like appeals. When asked to show that test they don't.
@@albertcastro3500 watch the video… RR literally addressed exactly that.
She had to prove exactly as much as the other female athletes had to prove.
She’s lived as a woman her entire life… that’s not a plausible con to win at sports.
@@reedclippings8991 ruclips.net/video/sWv7RQaLIxk/видео.htmlm38s says specifically we don't have enough evidence to say she is intersex , won't respond to the rest cause ur an idiot, the evidence is out there XY IBA says so , he should have spoken on this but he ignores it
@@reedclippings8991 ruclips.net/video/sWv7RQaLIxk/видео.htmlm38s says specifically we don't have enough evidence to say she is intersex , won't respond to the rest cause ur an idiot, the evidence is out there XY IBA says so , he should have spoken on this but he ignores it
I feel so sorry for Imane Khelif. Imagine having high-profile people like XY Rowling, Trump, Musk etc comment on you publicly like this.
This is possibly the worst example of bullying I've seen.
We can only hope that she actually wins her lawsuit and takes them down even just a notch.
Well, that's what you get for signing up for the women's division in the Olympics after accepting the ruling from your original governing body that you're disqualified for not being female. Maybe, just maybe that should have given her pause?
The comments were based on tests that showed them to be male. If they object to the results of the tests, why not sue the IBA and prove Rowling, Dawkins and Musk to be wrong?
The worst part about it.... she actually lives in a country were she could be killed for it. It is funny how quickly everyone assumed her to be trans, when she lives in a country were such a thing is illegal.
I feel sorry for the women having to risk their lives & loose Olympic medals fighting 2 males tested XY karyotype by 2 accredited labs.
As a female mma fighter, I appreciate this commentary. Fight sports shape fighters, even small female fighters, will hit harder than their male counterparts because they train harder and have perfected their techniques. Our bodies look hard because we train hard. You hear this "it's a dude" rhetoric too often when we train harder than our competition. If we look more feminine, then it's because we're cheating. Loosers always have shit excuses. Thanks for speaking up and defending female fighters.
Thanks for commenting with actual knowledge. Too many people come in with "according to my behind..."
We don’t allow women to have bodies of strength. Well fuck that they should.
Transphobia is just sexism under facade to be socially acceptable again. As we always end the transphobia is typically at…. Trans women.
Which ultimately saying society has an issue with women.
As a male mma fan, I salute you and what you're doing. It's hard, it's cool, it's fun, and I'm very impressed. Kudos to you, maam. Good luck in that cage!
Wha? Are you saying that male MMA fighters don't train hard and don't work on their technique? You're living on a different planet than me, for sure.
@@richardmetzler7909 She's saying women have to train HARDER than guys to achieve the same level. Which isn't wrong, it's like a handicap.
Consider HalfCoordinated, a speedrunner with hemiparesis. He speedruns on the same level as people who can use both of their hands on a controller, but had to adapt pretty much everything to do it one-handed and essentially work more to get on the same level.
There's nothing disparaging in saying he worked twice as hard as people without hemiparesis to hone his speedruning skills, this isn't dunking on other speedrunners.
Likewise, saying a female MMA fighter worked twice as hard as her male cohorts isn't dissing them. It's just acknowledging the different starting points.
as a trans woman, I really appreciate your support. whether trans women have an unfair advantage or not over cis women, i don't know, but it is endlessly dystopian how this hysteria over trans women has caused such damage to women of all kinds, not just trans.
This is kind of the vibe I get. I don’t know whether trans woman would have an unfair advantage or whether women like Khelif do. But, what I do know is the hateful invective all this has aroused in so many people is horrible. I get it’s a tough subject, but why it has to engender the level of hatred and cruelty to other people in a very personal way is beyond me.
You are a male
Boxer Joana Nwamerue who trained with Khelif:
“Khelif has some kind of internal issues. But he is a man. I will stay by my words until he/she does a test to prove to the world that he/she is a WOMAN. But we all know that won’t happen. Khelif’s teammates came to me and told me ‘Khelif is a woman and just lives high in the mountains with her relatives and parents and so there may be a change in her testosterone or chromosomes and the like. So myself and my coach watched Khelif and I said ‘that can’t be possible.’ Everywhere has people living in the mountains. It’s absurd.”
Mexican Brianda Tamara, against whom Khelif boxed in 2022:
“When I fought with her, I felt very out of my depth; her blows hurt me a lot. I don’t think I had ever felt like that in my 13 years as a boxer, nor in my sparring with men. Thank God that day I got out of the ring safely, and it’s good that they finally realized that he is a man.”
@@Florassbm no such tbing as a trans woman. You are a man who wants to be a woman but never will be .
6:50 this part is just so rich. “This is a man’s upper body!”… shows that the guy doesn’t watch many female sports or competitions if he can’t recognize that the top women athletes (aka the ones who go to the Olympics) are often muscular as hell. Especially strength-based sports.
Lol. Yep. Did you see the pale little guy who made that comment? Anyone who follows women's sports knows that especially in sports such as wrestling, power lifting, rugby, and a few others, the athletes can have incredibly masculine physiques.
And given that boxing is divided by weight, her build has an advantage over a more compact person like Carini.
No muscular woman looks like imane.
@@Datteban I mean, you could literally look up the other women she boxed against. They have the same build.
I was going to say the same. I don't think this guy has watched one minute of female sports in his life.
If it turns out that Imane actually has XX chromosomes, I'm sure Rowling's response will be "it's the fault of trans people for making me paranoid."
Jordan Peterson: let's define what XX really means from a metaphysical truth
Prove she is not on t
@supme7558 that's not how it works. You've got it backwards.
@@supme7558 Every athlete in the Olympics is subject to testing for performance enhancing substances. If she had tested positive, we would know by know. If that doesn't convince you, what would?
@@gitzcrazyboy You made me lol.
Imane Khalif literally has an anime protagonist origin story.
Lol. There'll probably be a motivational movie about her life or something
FR THOO!!
It's all just another lie from a massively corrupt country
Like joe from Megalo Box
This year's Olympics had a lot of anime energy to it, no? The shooters looked epic!
"If I was judged for everything what I did between the age of 16 and 19 I would be in prison."
YIKES.
How do these people keep telling on themselves like this?
Nevermind sexual assault, raise your hand if you haven't done anything criminal in your youth.
🤚
Never mind sexual assault?? Gee, thanks - as a multiple sexual assault survivor, your flippant comment scares me.
@@theStrayKat1980 And your apparent lack of reading comprehension scares the living hell out of me, so let me help you.
In the context of this sentence, "nevermind sexual assault" does NOT mean that sexual asasult is unimportant, it means that most of us haven't committed anything remotely criminal in our youth, least of all a crime as serious as sexual assault, while the person in the video assumes that most people have committed crimes comparable to sexual assault. Is that clear now?
@@barkasz6066 How does "nevermind sexual assault" convey "crimes comparable to sexual assault"?
Before I read your explanation, the charitable interpretation that came to me was that you lowered the bar to minor shit like smoking cannabis.
Instead of gracefully clarifying and apologising for insensitivity whether intentional or not, you choose to attack the person's intelligence.
Go outside and touch some grass.
@@theStrayKat1980 Sorry for your PTSD, but this is a discussion from multiple view points. Attacking someone is not the way to go.
@@alekz112 How do you people get on with your daily life if you are this fragile?
I really hate what Dawkins is doing. The fact that he's conducting himself in such a way that what he'll be remembered for is being a transphobic, cultural Christian, is depressing. His scientific work is going to be all but forgotten if he continues to behave this way.
Agreed. It's very disappointing.
I mean isn't the guy who won the nobel prize for discovering dna (or something about dna, i forget) a out and out racist? People still respect his work.
It's like Sam Harris and the spirituality kick.
He's been on the Islamophobia train for far longer than many are willing to acknowledge. The fact that he joined a particular subset of the "sceptic" community in cozying up to the right wing and becoming garden-variety reactionaries doesn't surprise me, and neither does his combining the transphobia with the Islamophobia to deny the womanhood of a brown woman. I can't even muster disappointment: this is who he's been for a long, long time
@@Darkloid21What’s wrong with Sam? Haven’t heard him say anything concerning about spirituality.
Of course the shade thrown on the two women boxers has nothing to do with the IBA being crook and that Kremlev got bent out of shape when Imane Khelif beat a Russian fighter.
Okay but you're willing to give credit to the Olympic Committee same people who told the Chinese government they're more than welcome to tell us whether or not they cheated in the Olympics. I take it as long as the corruption leans towards your world ideology you're okay with it it's only when it goes the other direction that it needs to be called out.
@@apathyguy8338 What does that have to do with the obsession these people show over Trans athletes? Did you even watch or digest the video?
@@apathyguy8338 nonsense
@@apathyguy8338Agreed. Historically the IOC have been involved in MASSIVE corruption scandals involving money and bribery.
@@apathyguy8338 Ah yes, because China is just the bastion of LGBT rights and is incredibly chummy with the West.
I was an athlete in high school with elevated testosterone levels due to PCOS. I was good, but certainly not the best by any means. Should I have been banned from competing? This is a very nuanced issue and things aren’t as black and white as the transphobes like to think. My heart breaks for Imane Khelif. She worked so incredibly hard to become a gold medalist, but instead of getting to enjoy the fruits of her labor, she’s been bombarded with hate just because of her appearance.
It's nothing to do with her/his appearance, and tragedy/sob story have nothing to do with it. If she has XY chromosomes then whilst it's hard luck, she is a man
I actually think women with PCOS are somewhat over represented in athletics, but that’s not actually on par with someone having male levels of usable testosterone from internal testes. Women with PCOS have approximately twice the level of testosterone on average than other females, but males generally have ten times as much, and sometimes far more than that. I’m not saying that’s necessarily the case here, but it was definitely the case with Caster Semenya. Not all DSDs are the same and each case needs to be considered individually.
The problem is that nearly all top level athletes are genetric freaks. Why single out conditions associated with maleness
Imane Khelif is a "he" not a "she"
@@peterschaefferwow I’m assuming you listened this. You men must feel so threatened by women. How awful for you to see us becoming stronger and finding our true selves away from the stereotypes you men have created for us
I grew up in Florida but I own and operate a martial arts team in Hungary for a decade now. On a junior level many of my fighters have won the nationals in various weight classes and also won on AIBA/IBA tournaments. The amount of corruption we witnessed on these events were utterly disgusting from money laundering to all sorts of pandering and cheating. We started boycotting their shows in 2019 before the pandemic and my boxers turned to MMA or K-1.
I knew it right there and then that soon Olympic boxing will be over because this organization is gona kill the sport and now it happened...Los Angeles will not have boxing in the program because of all this. IOC as you said ran the boxing in Paris as they had enough of IBA but from now on they do not wanna deal with none of this nonsense...
So anyway, NOTHING the IBA claims can be taken as real, they lie for a living.
All the gullible fruit cups around me ran with this story literally seconds after Carini cried. Not the slightest research, investigation. Even with everything that's come to light since, they are still holding this position. This is a repeated theme.
“Gullible fruit cups.” Ha! I’m going to use that every time they try to insult libs.
Two different lab tests found Imane is male.
@@tarnw3301Nope, they didn't. Even check the recent release from the IBA containing their meeting minutes from back in March. No mention of her being male then, either.
@@nzmetalhead male karyotype.
They haven't been able to say "yes, he is a man" because his country demanded for the IBA to keep secrecy about the TWO lab results.
@@tarnw3301 her country would never allow that. The people on television, who are making you mad about something that doesn’t exist or affect you, are making you sound stupid.
From what I understand; women have testosterone too. I can speak from experience; i am a 66 yr-old woman and I am sick to death of plucking facial hair (more and more every year). When i was younger, facial hair? What’s that? As we women age, especially after menopause, estrogen levels drop significantly and testosterone levels begin to be more noticeable. Anyway, that’s my experience with estrogen and testosterone.
There's a huge gap in testosterone levels between male and female - and women need it to make estrogen.
Everybody has testosterone. Women usually ten times less or so than men. But still testosterone plays an important part in muscle function, the fight and flight -response and also sexuality for both genders. Men also have a small levels of estrogen for similar reasons (both sex hormones are basically a cholesterol molecule with a slightly different 'handle' on it).
That's not a problem having testosterone. The problem is which kind of puberty you've experienced. That makes all difference.
And a lot of women have naturally high testosterone levels, without being intersex
It's interesting how, the people who insisted most vehemently that only women can give birth, when they wanted to exclude trans men from the conversation around reproductive health; now turn around and say that naturally high testosterone levels or having a y chromosome makes you biologically a man - while, of course, many intersex women with xxy (and some with xy) chromosomes have given birth too, alongside a ton of women (usually not intersex) with naturally high testosterone levels.
Apparently women with polycystic ovarian syndrome (you know, a syndrome concerning the OVARIES) have now "gone through a too naturally male puberty" to compete in the women's category. Who would've thought.
@@ianosgnatiucshe experienced a female puberty. There are family photos of her to prove it
This was hard to watch, because it made me realize that I've been part of the problem - how embarrassing. Thank you for your brilliant way of communicating hard topics such as this 👍
I respect you changing your mind on this, we need more people like you in the world
Nothing he said was profound and if anything he just muddies the waters by calling this a trans issue which it isn't.
@@PhilWare1 congratulations on fulfilling Stephen's prediction of comments from people who didn't actually watch the video 👌
@@PhilWare1 😂😂😂
@@PhilWare1Yes it was a trans issue but also a misogynistic campaign. The way the discussion went it’s clear certain people are simply obsessed with trans females and see them everywhere. Also no hard evidence - just rumors and that as basis to question a woman’s femininity.😢
I’m the father of two trans men whom I absolutely love and whose rights I will fight to my last breath to protect. I was a little gutted when I heard a hero of mine, Richard Dawkins, speak against trans rights. The fact that my children grew up alongside Hermione, Ron, and harry has not helped either. So disappointing…
I'm sorry for the disappointment :( i'm sure your kids deeply appreciate you thought, and that's what matters most
You’re one of the best Dads that ever Dadded, imho. 🏆😊
Your men will never know the disconnect of having reluctantly ‘supportive’ parents because they ‘have’ to be, these days.
So keep Dadding the way you Dad. Imagine that - producing stable, well-loved adults!
You are not the only one who is disappointed. Rowling I already knew. Dawkins I just learned 😢 For the latter I m even more disappointed. Dawkins is a scientist who should know how important facts are 😮
Dawking is not speaking against trans rights. JK Rowling, to the best of my knowledge, has nothing against trans people either. She just does not want language to be crippled to the point of becoming unusable. Try not drinking the kool aid when it is offered to you.
@@coolcat23it’s not 2020 anymore. Her rampant transphobia is visible to everyone. So vile her rhetoric has become that she doesn’t even deny it anymore. Calling trans women men in dresses. Accusing them of being rapists and a danger to women for being born with a wiener, comparing hormone replacement therapy to gay conversion and claiming they’re the same, also saying that best cure for gender dysphoria is to go through with it (it’s eerie how analogous it is to telling gay people to grow out of their homosexuality).
She is so obnoxiously despicable and disgusting that there isn’t even a place for her in hell.
wtf... they said a guy raping a 12 year old sounds like a "inappropriate holiday romance thing".... who tf is that lady that said that???
They said that because thats exactly what it was. A consensual romantic relation between a young guy and an under age girl. I still consider that inappropriate and even immoral, but calling it rape is muddying the waters. Consensual sex can never be rape.
@@PMHaag you think a 12 year old has the ability to consent? Remind me to never let a 12 year old near you.
@@PMHaag"underage" is an important word there dude. You need to look up what statutory rape is. Maybe stay away from schools in the meantime
@@PMHaag The age of consent in Norway (where our convicted rapist is from) is 16. I looked it up to disprove your point. In his home country, a 12-year-old legally CAN'T consent, therefore it IS, by law, statutory rape. Whether or not the 12-year-old child said it was okay doesn't matter in the slightest. They are too young to actually know and understand the decision they are making. This is why we have age of consent laws.
In a different vein, drunk people are also not actually able to give consent in many states in America. While those people are of the age of consent (hopefully), their state of mind is deemed such that despite being able to articulate an approval, they are not of sound mind, and therefore any consent they are perceived as giving is legally considered to not exist.
@@jul3249 Yes. In fact, I know that for sure because I have been in that exact position myself. I consended well considered and still stand by it.
The ad hominum is very contributing. Does it make you proud to do that, having read my comment and thus knowing very well that it is not justified?
An important fact left out is that the IBA disqualified her after she beat a Russian opponent.
A previously unbeaten Russian, so the disqualification restored her record. That decision being made by another Russian without qualification of the methodology used for the reason sounds pretty suspect.
And she was scheduled to fight an Uzbekistani opponent.
and she has lost before too to other women , what is this supposed to mean?
She shouldn't have dropped her appeal then, eh?
She did not beat a Russian opponent. This is just a flat out lie. The match was registered as a walk out, so they didn't even fight.
"Make sure to leave a comment that reveals that you didn't watch the video" LMAO
So many people! 😂
yea like me. there are only two genders.
😂
No, youre doing it wrong.
He said this at the end of the video, youre not supposed to know about that!
This whole thing infuriates me. Powerful people punching down. I would think Dawkins is better than this, but until he apologizes, I have to assume he's not
It's very disappointing. But maybe the best explanation is that Dawkins is just a bully. First bullying christians and yet bullying athletic women.
The irony is that there was a real transgender boxer at the Paris Olympic Games. Hergie Bacyadan was born female & transitioned to a male. He is a member of the Philippine Boxing team & boxed in the 70kg weight category. He lost to the top seed and was eliminated.
The point is he lost, because biology doesn't lie. I'm gonna be nice to him and use the correct pronouns, but he can't escape the reality that he is physiologically and genetically female.
What's the irony? Women are on average worse than men in sports, so a trans-man not winning is pretty much expected.
When have you ever heard a trans man breaking Men's record? It doesn't exist. It's always the other way.
Who needs fact and reason when there's anger, fear and ignorance?
We don't *_have_* any solid facts. That's the problem - Khelif was put in the "women's sports" category due to unknown test results (which are just as secret as the test results of the IBA), when the other one isn't "men's sports", but "everyone *_other than_* women's sports".
@@Wolf-ln1ml Source?
@@satyestru *_I_* don't know the criteria or tests that the Olympic Committe used. Source? My brain.
If you know them, it'd be up to you to provide your sources.
@@Wolf-ln1ml Sorry, I might have misread your comment. I thought you were saying if she was intersex or something that she shouldn't be in women's boxing. Knee-jerk reaction. Sorry.
@@Wolf-ln1ml I meant by "Source?" "Where did you get the idea the categories are 'women's' and 'non-women's'?" (which I still do doubt). Overall, just kinda made an ass of myself.
Phelps is a missing link from our previous watery existence from millions of years ago lol
I still think the aquatic ape hypothesis deserves to be taken more seriously...
He is proof of a genetic LEAP of mutation e.g creatures without eyes to with having eyes.
If global warming succeeds to engulf us into a Waterworld, future humans would be all Phelps.
@@macgonzo I genuinely can't tell if you're joking or not. If you genuinely mean this, please go see a doctor and get yourself diagnosed.
@@JD-wu5pf I genuinely can't tell if you're joking or not. If you genuinely mean this, please go see a doctor and get yourself diagnosed.
They have an impossibly-high bar for accepting that a trans man is a man, but they're more than happy to call a woman a man based solely on the fact that she has muscles...
I was going to say, these people are so insistent that someone who was assigned female at birth is actually a male... I've got some friends for them to meet, just for the gender validation. Telling my transmasc friends they'll never be real women? Phenomenal
I at first fell for the lie that she was a man, but a tiny bit of research showed me I was incorrect in my first assumption. This woman has excelled at her sport and should be applauded. I’m constantly fighting transphobia in my work place and it is exhausting, people spouting nonsense like “there are only two genders”, “what is it” etc. why can’t bigots realise the damaging and dehumanising language they use has an effect on people. Unfortunately people can’t be bothered to educate themselves, they are much happier espousing the Facebook experts narrative on things without realising these people know nothing about the subject they are talking about. Thank you for this video, and I did watch to the end.
so many people suddenly become experts when their feelings are hurt
Yep, RR is suffering a lot from that here.
I'm not an expert, I'm just listening to the people who ran the tests. Imane failed a karyotype test and doesn't have XX chromosomes. This was confirmed by two separate labs in two separate countries. Imane was able to compete in the Olympics because the Olympics were using passports to judge whether someone was a woman or not, and Imane is female on her passport. So the only debate you can actually have is the same debate people have been having for like a decade. "What is a woman? What is a female? Should non-females be allowed to box in the female division?"
And those questions aren't anything you can be an expert about, those are just gut feelings and opinions.
@@JD-wu5pf So you're listening to Russian propaganda? Interesting 🤔
@@JD-wu5pf "...because the Olympics were using passports to judge whether someone was a woman or not,..." And now you are just openly lying 🤦🏼♂️
@@angelmendez-rivera351 Ah yes, I forgot, anything the Russians do is Russian propaganda. We can't trust (((them))). I've got some space lasers to sell you, friend.
This has all been so infuriating. I am disgusted by the sheer number of people whose politics could lately be described as cruelty for cruelty's sake.
If u think wanting women to have fair sport is cruel, u need a dictionary
@@albertcastro3500 What verifiable data concerning Imane's chromosomes do you posess?
@@OneTheBlue IBA claims she is XY that is a fact until proven otherwise
@@albertcastro3500the way people treat imane goes far above and beyond "caring for fairness". There'd been certified cheats in the olympics (the taking drugs type) who've been treated with mucn more respect than she has for mere allegations
@@OneTheBlue the IBA staments abt her genetics
7:42 idk man if I was judged on everything I did between the ages of 12-19 we might all cringe in unison but I most certainly would NOT be in prison. What the hell were YOU doing between those ages???
Excellent video. I hope Imane wins her lawsuit. She rose above poverty and misogyny to reach her dream only to be attacked by a billionaire because she doesn't think Imane is pretty enough to be a woman. This would be laughable if it weren't so cruel. I have long been a fan of Richard Dawkins, so his late-life transphobia is very disappointing.
If you listen to Dawkins carefully, you may realise that he is not a transphobic. There is a problem here with men wanting to gain fame and money by cheating, and the trick is "play in women's sports". And you have men identifying as women (some times without even surgery or any other action to back up their claim) to gain the legal right to paritcipate in games with women... It is one thing calling those men cheaters and another saying he is a "transphobic". Even trans people speak out about the problem of men creating and taking advantage of loopholes, that eventually bring problems to trans people in general.
The problem is NOT trans people. The problem is people (men in particular) trying to early exploit a "hole in the system" to gain unfair advantage against their opposition (women, in this instance).
I agree with you. I thought letting Lia Thomas compete against women was outrageous. That's why in 2022 the IOC instituted a rule that prevented transgender females from competing in women's sports if they did not begin hormone conversion therapy by the age of 12. The problem with the accusation levied against Imane is that there is no evidence that she is either transgender or XY.
@@ThanosNikolopoulosbut the thing is that argument doesn’t apply to Iman case, so it makes it weaker. In the “best” case scenario, she is intersex and Rowling and the other ones are partially correct but still largely incorrect by referring to this case as a trans issue when it is absolutely not, even in that case
it blows my mind just how out of control misinformation has become.
Yep, RR just adding to the pile.
i know. the fact that people think a person who was born with a dick is somehow a woman is just crazy.
@@take-time how? You really don’t understand that her entire life she was seen as a woman right? Her being male would be news to the nation of Algeria.
@@n0etic_f0x "How?" - Some example of misinformation from RR in this video:
- RR implies that JKR claimed that Imane is trans. He provides no evidence of this, and as far as I'm aware there is no evidence of this. JKR and Dawkins have both stated that they don't believe Imane is trans.
- RR claims that JKR decided that Imane is male due to not looking feminine enough. JKR never made such a claim.
- RR claims that the gender tests the IBA commissioned was testosterone based. In the publically available press statement from the IBA is says that the "athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination".
"You really don’t understand that her entire life she was seen as a woman right?"
The relevant consideration people have is not what the people around Imane thought, it's whether Imane is male. What people around Imane think isn't relevant.
"Her being male would be news to the nation of Algeria."
If Imane is male then both Imane and the Algerian national media have a vested interest in not revealing this information. Caster Semenya being male was almost universally obfuscated by the main stream media, and much of it does even to this day. If Imane is male it wouldn't be at all suprising to see the mainstream media do the same.
It blows my mind that heavily repeated information is expected to not be believed
Thank you for mentioning PCOS. It’s a common condition, and yet so many people don’t know anything about it.
The whole debate around Imane has been pretty tortuous for women with hormonal disorders.
Brilliant episode. Had to share it and piss off my US Conservative chums.
I would like to see Richard Dawkins and Forest Valkai debate. I don't want to see a philosophical debate because Dawkins is a biologist but I want to see is another biologist take him to task on things he must already know
I was gonna ask if Stephen had seen Forrest's video take on gender.
Except women and womanhood is not biological question. It is question of philosophical, political and even zeitgeist. I mean Afro American women were female from biological perspective yet arguments to not desegregate bathrooms, especially women's, were same as with trans people - "N*gro women resembles more man then women." "They are as agresive as white man" etc.
Forest is an idiot.... if you think Dawkins is wrong on this side Forest is just as wrong the other way
I would love to see Dawkins educate Valkai about basic biology.
valkai has a great mind, is excellent on theistic topics, has excellent knowledge on biology but, unfortunately, is ideologically captured on this issue
If you think it's exhausting, try being a trans person. We are confronted with a massive flood of misinformed opinions and misinformed people in every part of our lives.
I’m so sorry to hear that ❤ I support u
Yeah, online it's just a shitshow most of the time and offline it isn't much better. Trans women are now banned from international chess, because men are smarter than women and we are men? Oh and trans men loose their titles because I don't know... them competing in women's tournaments bevore transitioning is cheating?
Hope you're doing well. You do have allies out here. ♥️
RR at some point back in the day actually caught a lot of flack because he used to be one of those misinformed people.
His first video on the topic of trans women in sports was kinda poorly researched, and not very favourable to trans people, and people were quick to point that out to him.
So, unlike Dawkins for example, he took it down and uploaded an apology and a correction, because he realized he was wrong.
I didnt realise we were playing "exhausting top trumps".
I watched it to the end and say, Hooorayyy!
At a school I reach at in Australia, they held a free dress day (no uniforms) with the theme: Gender Bender. Plenty of jock boys came in dresses. They matched shoes, bags and jewellery. Some sweet girls came with beards and boots. Some came as aliens and some wore what they feel comfy in - pajamas, tiaras, gangsta do-rags etc.. and some wore uniforms. No problems. All fun. And they still did their work and went to classes, answering the roll to their names. It was glorious, and the student council raised about $1000 for more good times for students!
Funny to hear so many irrational arguments on a channel called Rationality Rules.
What kills me about this is the rock solid confidence of people claiming Imane Khelif has XY chromosomes, while the only source is an organization with ties to the Russian government that claims to have done a test they won't even publish after a Russian boxer was defeated by her.
Only source? Are you sure? Her trainer did an interview with Le Point where they pretty much confirm the IBA tests results.
Her camp literally came out and confirmed it all. "There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes, but she is a woman" www.lepoint.fr/sport/exclusif-jo-2024-imane-khelif-a-ete-aneantie-de-decouvrir-d-un-seul-coup-qu-elle-pourrait-ne-pas-etre-une-fille-09-08-2024-2567609_26.php
......and the rock solid confidence of those that claim she doesn't have XY chromosomes. Both sides are claiming with confidence but without clarity of the evidence no-one can know properly.
@@PhilWare1 The evidence is that the IOC allowed her to compete 🤦🏼♂️ fascinating how you think the IBA is a valid source of evidence, but not the IOC.
@@Vee-Hive That is an inaccurate narrative.
When you obsess on a certain topic long enough, you start to see it everywhere, whether it's there or not. Obsession isn't about reality; it's a vicious cycle that leads to self-delusion.
Agreed, RR has fallen down the gender rabbit hole.
@@take-timedo you don’t understand why gender is different to sex?
I'm so glad that my worldview doesn't depend on the good character of a person whose books I have enjoyed in the past, but has lately turned out to be incredibly foolish, uncivilized and thuggish.
JK probably has a mole he just can't refuse.
Always best to separate the art from the artist 😔
It is a weird world we live in where I can't tell if you are mean Rowling or Dawkins
Rowlings is thuggish? Get a life, mate.....
@@neelsg Ha. I considered that I had laid down an ambiguity. I meant Dawkins. I have read the first 3½ of JK's books, but they're not great, so I don't take them seriously. I was thinking of The Blind Watchmaker and another book from Richard's earlier times.
I am Greek. I can leave here some names of Greek female athletes, that were great in their prime, and didn't look like men: Verouli, Patoulidou, Thanou... Go look at them in some photos. And then we can all understand that the "doesn't look female" argument is an offensive argument against women who were so dedicated and so good at their sports, that transformed their whole body to achieve the results they did. By the way, that is what men do too! Have you seen the bodies of weightlifters? Of swimmers? Of gymnastics? Of course they go for another kind of transformation, but in the end it is always the same: Transforming your body to achieve higher levels of results.
The argument of "doesn't look female" is an insult to human beings pushing their bodies to the maximum of their capabilities as athletes.
The point about his physique is that it corroborates the evidence established by the 2 chromosome tests.
@collyernicholasjohn 1.Not his. Hers.
2. which chromosome tests ?
3. The olympic committee knows less than us random commenters on RUclips? How plausible is that?
@@ThanosNikolopoulos Both were tested at independent accredited labs and both the male athletes were told by the IBA they’re not eligible for the female category. Both were given the opportunity to appeal but chose not to.
@@collyernicholasjohn The IBA is the most corrupt sporting body in the world. They fix fights and tests. 'Independent laboratory'? Reference? Thought not. WADA accredited? Thought not? Jog along champ.
@@collyernicholasjohn1) we don't know on record that there was a chromosome test. 2) the physique critique is poorly informed confirmation bias, so proves nothing.
I'm of two minds about the lawsuit. On the one hand, to sue for being accused of being trans does tacitly suggest that it's okay to treat trans people the way Khalif has been treated, since the premise is she's cis. But on the other hand, I can't think of any other way to hold these ghouls accountable, so...
Dawkins and Rowling are gouls? Are you kidding?
Khalif mainly wants to sue because many people in her home country of Algeria are really transphobic and harass her just because some dinglewads assumed things about her.
I feel the same way. A lot depends on how the suit is framed. Is it based on the harrassment (based on incorrect and ideological assumptions) or explicitly a defamation suit for daring to call her trans? A nuanced but deeply important distinction. I hope it's the first.
@@Adidasler593yes they are
Khalif mainly wants to sue because many people in her home country of Algeria are really transphobic and harass her just because some dinglewads assumed things about her.
One thing that doesn’t really get all that mentioned in this conversation is that there is absolutely some racist undertones to Imane being harassed. In the past, black women used to be not allowed to compete in women’s sports against white women because the standards, such as testosterone levels, only considered the more narrow range of white women. Of course, now we see the front face of the argument being trans women, although it all comes down to the same source, the white patriarchal system that determined that women should be “weak, fragile and gentile” and lighter-skinned, of course.
I 100% agree, this is very racially motivated
This situation is horrendous combination of transphobic hysteria + misogynoir.
How is any of it racially motivated? Nah some of you need to check yourselves on this one. This podcast is meant to be about rationality.
@@rsb8380 Misogynoir is a thing, especially if women of color don't look feminine enough for some people.
@@rsb8380it was literally well known that black women were seen as masculine and weren’t allowed in certain spaces in sports. Google is your friend.
‘Armchair endocrinologist’. WTF?? SO LOVE THAT!
Thank you for your support
Dawkins has spent so much time criticizing religious beliefs he seems to have picked up a few and adopted as his own. Shaming, assuming, condemning, bullying yup seems they struck a chord in old Ricky Dawkins.
I'm looking at the former videos Stephen made criticizing Dawkins on this subject. The comments sections on those videos have all aged like milk.
One of the comments says, and I quote, "Dawkins is simply correct. And that is simply obvious. Deal with it." The irony.
It's honestly dis-heartening how much of the athiest community, especially online seem to have fallen into the right wing grift
@@deltahalo241 - It disheartens me that members of the atheist community have embraced the pseudo-religion of gender ideology. Dawkins is absolutely spot on. As for Khelif, she may or may not be male. We literally don't know, although it would take her ten seconds to do a mouth swab to prove that she's female. She hasn't done it yet.
Maybe unpopular opinion, but the IOC has some culpability here too.
During these Olympic Games the IOC had the perfect opportunity to set a new standard in fairness, by creating a science-backed system, that would level the playing field, and allow athletes from the entirety of the spectrum to compete fairly.
Instead they went with the standard male-female subdivision and used passport entries to allot the atheletes to the "appropriate" group.
I fully concur, that the word of the IBA isn't worth the air used to pronounce it, but the IOC needed to get in front of this issue, and they just didn't.
The IOC has no power over other countries. It's always the same with international organisms, countries don't like to gave them even a bit of sovereignty.
Good luck convincing the USA that they MUST adopt a system developed by an international committee, when they have not yet adopted the metric system.
I don't totally agree. First off, they don't directly regulate requirements and eligibility for each sport. Every sport has determined their own, based usually on hormone levels and how long a person has been on HRT.
The IOC's response was essentially, "Khelif met all requirements in order to compete in the women's division. We will not be commenting on her specific medical records as that is private information."
The only additional response was regarding the IBA "tests" and they said, "The testing and results we've been presented are so flawed and nonsensical that they aren't worth considering." Kinda sounds like they were given a hand written note that said, "Trust me bro."
The reality is that around trans folk and sport, it's an emerging science. And what is fair (as loosely defined in elite sport) could be different from sport to sport. The biological requirements for weight lifting could very well be different than say long distance running.
All that said, the statistics say that trans women don't have a huge advantage or maybe even have a disadvantage. Since 2004 (when trans women were allowed in the Olympics) something like 5000 medals have been given out in women's events. Statistically then trans women should have won 25-100. And with the "huge advantage" they supposedly have, many more. In fact, hormonally transitioned women competing in women's event have won a grand total of... zero medals. Nada. Not one. Given the stats the question isn't, "Why do trans women dominate?" It is now, "Where are all the trans women?"
@@CorwinFound The problem was that having passed the buck on eligibility to each governing body, the IOC then fell out with the IBA for political reasons, and barred them from determining who should or should not compete at the Olympics. That might have been fine, except they did not themselves apply any sensible alternative criteria for entry into the women's category, despite having the test results that the IBA had previously provided, which had not been disputed by the two athletes concerned.
I'm very disappointed that RR didn't cover the IOC basis for admitting these athletes as women. Both sides of the argument need to be seen. If these women would not have been allowed to compete in athletics, say, but were admitted to boxing through a lack a rigour then this is a problem. Boxing is one of the most violent sports in the olympics and needs proper regulation.
@@leonais1 But there is no good basis to exclude these women. You're making an improper argument, holding two unequal valued statements to hold the same value... I believe this is called the fallacy of false equivalency.
Serena Williams experienced the same BS as Imane Khelif.
You certainly notice it’s only strong women who are not Caucasian that get accused of being male….
The most telling circumstance about the whole situation is the fact that by a simple chromosome test all these speculations could be easily ended and the question clarifed. However, IOC and the boxers choose not to perform this. :) This to me, is circustancial evidence that the suspicions of XY chromosomes are well founded.
Absolutely
The only test she needed was already done at birth, she was AFAB and has never identified herself as anything other than female. The doctors when she was born saw a clam, not a sausage. That’s it. Proof complete. She no more needs to do that than she needs to prove she’s not a witch. She is already a woman to anyone who has any sense. She doesn’t need to prove anything to a bunch of bigoted haters, misogynists and transphobes and bullies.
Or that the IBA's bullshit doesn't even deserve to be taken into consideration. Russia lies, Kremlev lies, the IBA lies
chromosome tests are not simple ,people can be XX, XY, XXY , XYY .XO, XXX etc . and you couldn't tell by looking at them .Elementary school biology is not a medical degree.
@@francescafoot9739 True but Doctors in Biology (phd) know about these DSDs and whether people are male or female even if they unfortunately have a DSD
Wow. I'm surprised to find out she actually isn't trans at all. Putting all the usual bullies aside, even reputable newspapers in my country reported this as if she was trans. Scary example of how misinformation can spread.
If you had actually followed the story at the time the argument was ALWAYS about intersex and not trans. The pro trans lobby hijacked the situation and then the anti trans jumped on the bandwagon.
@@PhilWare1 That's false. The anti trans cult immediately started with "dat is trans!!1!!!!!!!111111!!!!"
Why would you be surprised?
@@ExtremeMadnessX It's in the thing you responded to... reputable newspapers reported on it, and some people still have the idea that newspapers contain facts that aren't bought and paid for. So it would be surprising to find that they were full of shit
Yes, really scary. At first I was gaslighted too. Until I discovered there is literally nothing, not even the XY is substantiated.
Silenced her while she thought of worse ways to make this woman's life miserable.
9:51
“Arm chair Endocrinologist” are perhaps some of the most terrifying words I’ve ever heard. No one should just look at anything endocrinology related and be like “Oh yeah! That looks fine.” with out extensive studies bc that shit is CONFUSING.
the thing that kills me the most about this whole thing is that she is a really good boxer and the opening she used to clock the Italian boxer was big enough she could load it all the way. it wasn't a matter of strength it was a matter of smart boxing, and well placed hands!
I hope her lawsuit earns her a fortune, I was furious watching all the lies told about her. She could probably sue half the internet at this point 😂
"I hope her lawsuit earns her a fortune, "
why would you say that?you want that dude imane to get money from people because his feelings got hurt? screw you.
@@susanwjoh0re735 I mean if anyone's feelings are hurt here, it seems to be you 🤣
@@sebben13 how are my feelings hurt silly?you are all crying because someone called a man a man.
@@susanwjoh0re735 Just look at the difference between our comments. Which one seems to be most impacted by emotions? I can't see how my comment gave you any reason to think I was crying about something?
@@susanwjoh0re735 Imane is not a man. I am sorry that you have a mental illness preventing you from engaging with reality and trapping you in your own hallucinations.
Never mind insisting that her chromosomes are beyond dispute, I've seen people insisting that a diagnosis of 5-ARD is beyond dispute. And the chromosomes themselves don't confer an advantage, that's absolutely laughable. There are dozens of genes that play a role in sex development, both in utero and during puberty, such as SRY, AR, SOX9, and NR5A1, and those are just the ones I can name off the top of my head, and there are certainly more genes than the dozens we already know. And even if you did have access to someone's entire genome, it STILL wouldn't give you all the information you need. NR5A1 mutations plague my family, yet the exact same mutation presents wildly differently in XY individuals, from "completely fertile man" to "woman who, though without working ovaries, can probably carry children."
Take AIS, which gets thrown around a bit. It's a spectrum (because people can be partially sensitive). If you had the genome and got a complete hormone profile and found high androgens, you STILL don't have all the information without a complete understanding of a person's androgen receptivity. And plenty of cases of androgen insensitivity aren't linked to mutations in any of the known genes, so you'd literally need to test androgen sensitivity directly. And that's just AIS. There just isn't a single perfect test, or even a combination of perfect tests, that can cover every possible edge case for neatly categorizing everyone, despite the unsourced and provably incomplete tables of DSDs constantly posted by transphobes on Xitter.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 Thank you, thank you for this! I know the ‘phobes won’t bother with it, but maybe the folks who are uncertain about the barrage of claims they’ve seen might. In any case, I’m among those who find it so helpful and reassuring to have someone spell out clearly elements of the sex and gender spectrum complexities instead of just noting that it is complex.
To be clear: I’m a non-scientist, avid armchair reader and follower of this and other sciences; I’m also nonbinary and transmasculine-and sometimes wonder if I would fall somewhere on the wide spectrum of intersex variants if I was given all the tests and exams currently possible. That’s not gonna happen, and I don’t really care, but it’s a reminder that none of us really knows in the absence of such evidence…and it shouldn’t matter.
I mean, this is overcomplicating the issue, since the IBA test was made up to begin with. They are a corrupt organization that was replaced. Using them as a source is a non-starter.
Still, the litmus test of the IOC for deciding whether someone is a male or a female is whatever gender in his/her passport.. I mean, that's stupid. There has to be a genetic test!
Piers Morgan also spoke on this, and was totally accusing Imane of being a biological male
"Accused" of being a biological male?
No. Not that! Anything but that!
@@rossini55 it is, because it's a woman, what do you want her to do, send a nude, honestly y'all are embarrassing
I expect nothing else from Piers Morgan, but from Richard Dawkins I expect something different.
@@ouwebrood497 Perhaps Piers and Dawkins are both right?
@@ouwebrood497 I dunno, from what I saw on his appearances on piers Morgan show, he seems a bit of a pseudo intellect, maybe I don't know him that well to know for sure, but from what I've seen Richard isn't much better
Thanks! What a clear rational argumentation against bigotry.
However, there is a good reason for testing women athletes for testosterone levels: remember the swimming scandal when the entire feminine team from China was disqualified because of... testosterone doping?
But that tests for synthetic test and anabolic not for having an above average level. 9xs out of 10 all athletes have higher than average levels. That's why they're super athletes.
@@russellward4624 The moment when we bring the "genetic differences" discussion in sports, we may as well throw away the scouting for talents and we can easily transform the Olympic Games in a sort of Eurovision or America Got Talent show.
By all accepted criteria in sports, Imani Khelif is a woman and was born with a particular combination of genes, just like ANY OTHER champion! That's what scouting for talents is for! Winning a competition is not a democratic process by definition.
@@AlbertGuilmont "Woman" in sports is a protected class due to physical dimorphism inherent in male and female Homo sapiens. (Otherwise, why have this category at all?) The "particular combination" required to qualify for the "woman's" category should be "XX". If the individual is XY and is found to have male gonads then they are biologically male, not female. ...So let's see the DNA test.
There's a good reason for testing ALL athletes for testosterone levels, not just female ones...the majority of those caught using testosterone doping have been male.
One also has to keep in mind, of course, that testosterone levels by themselves don't determine sex - there is a spectrum of the amount any person's body produces, and there is overlap between males and females. Some women naturally have more testosterone than other women - some men naturally have more testosterone then other men - some women naturally have more testosterone than some men - life is like that.
njhoepner, I agree that males and females have a range of testosterone levels but they do not overlap. Males have up to 10 times that of a female. The lowest male reading of testosterone is surprisingly after they stop taking it illegally. Their body gets lazy in producing testosterone, relaying on the illegal supply and it takes a while to get back to normal. Even so it never dips into the female range.
Everyone is so wrong on this case...
The main problem here is that we DO NOT KNOW if this athlete can fairly compete.
Claiming, that it's "enough to look at her" is equally stupid as claiming, that it's "enough to look at her passport".
The problem is, that the first stance is expressed by some random individuals online and the second one is the official position of the Olympic Committee.
PS. One can be both for gender-testing in female categories and allowing criminals to participate in Olympics after they had done their time. What a stupid "argument", I'm disappointed in Stephen.
Agreed! And one more thing: are you (not you, but one side :) ) telling me that in the entire history of the Olympics not woman with XY chromosomes ever participated? Why is this a problem now?!
@@Kentchangar There has been some Olympic scandals involving sex verification for decades, it's nothing new.
This case became boosted by the general insanity around "self-iding" as a woman, thus hurting everyone involved - athletes, trans people and the public.
It's so difficult to find anyone, who is sensible and measured around those things there days.
@@Qq-xs1fz Yup. Everyone has just picked one side and goes along with everything that side says. Or, at least, that's what it looks like online and with content creators. The only ones that I've personally seen that are on neither side (aka they support some issues on both sides) are Breaking Points.
@@Kentchangar BP are at least trying to pretend... They too often fall into the trap of the left side joining the critique of Dems, but the right side unable to really critic Reps. Or maybe it's just my dislike of Saagar... Ryan and Emily seem to be quite balanced.
What really scares me is how the left is scaring their own into submission. I remember how years ago Stephen here was denounced by some for his (now retracted) views on this very issue. More recently Ana Kasparian was called all the awful names for not liking to be called a "birthing person" and TYT seems to be quite cautious with any trans-related reporting there days. This is all going to blow up into out faces.
Her father offered to show her birth certificate, it's illegal to be trans, provide gender-affirming care, and transition in Algeria.
Just admit idiots fell for the lie.
Dawkins gives off a vibe that on his deathbed, he'll convert to Christianity. Random post
Like John Cleese, you mean.
He already call himself cultural Christian so...
O boy, evangelicals would have a field day how all their prayers have been listened to and god has proven his existence.
Good on you for calling out Dawkins. It's a shame to see him acting this way.
This smelled fishy from the start, no real proof of her being XY or whatever they were claiming. Just: "Oh, we can't say, but it's true, honest!" The only weird thing on the other side is Imane not saying what she was accused of and why it's wrong.
The IBA made the claim she is XY and failed a gender test, she can easily prove them wrong with providing her own results or contesting the IBA disqualification which she did not
Why should she? No, really. She lives in a country where being transgender is illegal, and the legal standing of being intersex is probably… uncertain. So what, exactly, does she have to gain?
I first heard about this a few days into the brouhaha. Basically a headline like, "Algerian boxer accused of being trans." That's all I had to hear to smell something fishy. Yes, Algeria has trans folk but it isn't legal. They are horribly oppressed (along with all other LGBT people) and there is _no_ way the Algerian government would send a trans person to represent them at the Olympics.
All that said, I have been impressed with Khelif and her team. Never in their responses have they thrown trans people under the bus. They've basically said, "We support all women having the opportunities of sport and Khelif is a woman and was born so."
They, even coming from a country with a history of anti-LGBT, have been far classier and accepting than the ideologues that jumped all over her. And maybe all of this will help broaden Algerians' minds on queer issues. Nothing like seeing a national hero getting oppressed like a queer person to broaden empathy for queer folk.
@@albertcastro3500 One of the reasons the IBA was dropped from Olympic certification was that they did not provide any appeals process for any of their decisions. So pointing to her not contesting it is at best ignorance of the situation, and at worse dishonest.
@@albertcastro3500She is sueing. Do you think she and her team would do that if they don't have the goods? Right now, sharing medical data, especially since IOC said "She passed all our requirements," would just negatively impact their suit. Rowling, Musk and others are going down.
Great video!
Thank you!
Greetings from Sweden.
I was most annoyed by the purposeful misgendering/use of male pronouns. Even having XY chromosomes wouldn’t make her a man. Sex is not purely defined by chromosomes. Calling her “he” and a man when she is, at most, intersex, is just ignorant.
Why say "at most", intersex? Could be a full blown male. It is possible
@@SamS-uv2ql It would also be improper still
@@SamS-uv2qlBecause there are several markers of sex. Chromosomes are only one, and often they conflict. When they do, we call that intersex. So if she had mostly female markers, but male chromosomes she would be at most intersex.
@@SamS-uv2ql No. It literally is not possible to grow up in Algeria as a "full blown male" without being called a man.
@AogNubJoshh it's only words friend.... go step outside of the West where slavery is alive and well, to be Gay will get you the dealth penalty and in places where food and water are a luxury....
In planetary terms, misgendering is a nothing....
The tests should be the same for everyone and they are pretty clear. The problem is that the Olympic committee does allow men to compete beside women; notably in weightlifting, so forgive me if I don't feel like they're operating honestly.
I know Martin Niemoller’s quote is often overdone, but here I think it applies - “First they came for the trans people, but I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a trans person…” etc. I’m a “non-masculine” man with a slight build and have had my chromosomes occasionally questioned years ago, in passing. But nowadays my nonconformity to the masculine ideal could end up being a real problem for me. If I were in the public spotlight (thankfully I’m not), I would expect to be “transvestigated”. In the Muskian-Trumpist far-right world model, any person who doesn’t conform to stereotyped cartoonish ideals of masculine men and feminine women is a target for persecution. Not being a trans person won’t save you, as Imane Khelif has found out.
Yup. You're overdoing it.
@@rossini55 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Hi! I totally agree with you. Subbed & liked. Keep it up.
Who is silenced? She tweeted about this yesterday...
I think this video was recorded earlier.
Long may she continue.
So we are supposed to believe that Khelif could have put an end to all these terrible and wrong accusations a long time ago simply by proving to have XX chromosomes (possible via blood sample or cheek swab), but decides not to do it. I find this very, very unlikely, but would be happy to be proven wrong.
Yeah, because you would surely believe that outcome.
And what if she’s neither XX, nor XY, what then?
@@hamster4618 If the tests were done by an accredited laboratory, why would anyone not believe them?
If something other than XX or XY, it would be the presence of one or more Y chromosomes which would be the determining factor. However, those variations usually come with significant health problems, which Khelif does not seem to have.
@@juvenalsdad4175 right, and which would that be? And are you sure they would?
Trump doesn’t seem to believe anything he doesn’t want to believe, regardless of evidence. The courts are all rigged, even if they have judges appointed by him.
Dawkins would probably accept the outcome. But out of curiosity, since when do those in the midst of a gossip attack be the ones to prove the “innocence”?
Why not start with the evidence for the claim rather than having to justify your sex to some stranger?
Why does the IOC believe Khelif?
Why haven’t Algerian authorities or indeed the rather conservative population demand a sex-check?
Perhaps it’s one giant Algerian conspiracy to get a male in the Olympics fighting a female, but that seems odd to me.
I could imagine she doesn’t have straight up xx or xy chromosomes. I can even imagine that popped up late in life as it does. So let’s get to that question by Matt Walsh he never answers himself: “what is a woman?”
For about 550,000-750,000 years of homo sapien existence people had to do with what they saw: external or internal genitalia.
These days that’s not enough, because these days we need a chromosome test to count x-ses and y’s. And, as you say matter of accounting: how many of each.
Some will say anything with a y.
@@juvenalsdad4175 Because some people will make up anything to justify their own bullshit.
I don't get it. Why not just demand a DNA test to determine the sex of every athlete? Costs around 30€. We test for so many shit, no reason to not do it here as well.
because a DNA takes a lot of time to be done, like months in waiting.
@@guilhermecastro9893 bro, if you plan to compete in international tournaments you do this one time in you life. It will not change any more.
Even if you just do it for the Olympics: you know half a year in advance that you will be there. Trust me, I'm organizing such events. Time is not an issue.
Yes. Agreed. We can check if a sprinter had a cough remedy 3 months ago. But checking someone's sex is just too difficult, expensive and time consuming?
Because chromosomes aren't the be-all end-all
@@guilhermecastro9893 i dont think they should TEST but a PCR takes a couple of hours
I'm glad i stuck around. I think im going to subscribe. 😊
Haha the signoff tho 😆... Well done
1) I box and know that there had been complaints about Imane Khelif for years. This was before the IBA tests and their involvement. Female boxers, coaches, and boxing organizations filed complaints about Khelif being a man ever since he started in the adult womens boxing circuit. Look at his fight with Brianda Cruz from a year ago. He almost massacred her, and he's walking into her punches without flinching and with his guard down. He's not afraid of Cruz and can withstand her punches. He's also holding back a lot. That's a red flag.
2) This was handled privately initially. The IBA tested twice and found Khelif was a biological man. Khelif was given the opportunity to retest at the IBA's expense. Khelif refused. Khelif could have appealed and did so initially and then dropped the appeal and so he was banned from the world championships. This was over a year go when these tests were done, so Khelif knew about his genetics at least in 2023.
3) Khelif applied for the Olympics anyhow despite the genetic tests and despite being banned from the World Championships. The IBA sent a letter with the test results to the medical team for the IOC a year ago to warn them about Khelif. This was not done publicly, but a private letter with the test results. The IOC didn't respond and allowed Khelif in. They said they only use passports to verify biological sex.
4) When Khelif boxed Carini and Carini didn't last in the ring because her nose was broken and she was bloody, people knew Khelif was a man. His build, the blows to her face, and blood within 46 seconds are red flags of abnormal strength. The IBA was then forced to do a press releae on their website saying they told the IOC a year ago, and Khelif knew a year ago as well. This was now a safety and dangerous game that the IOC and Khelif were playing.
5) The IOC president, Thomas Bach, did a press conference and disregarded the IBA and their results. The IOC said they don't do testing at all. They only look at the passport. The IBA was then forced to do a press conference in Paris because Khelif was getting ready to fight more women and potentially seriously injure or kill a woman. Even the VP for the World Boxing Organization came out and said Khelif and several others were biological men.
6) The IOC has done nothing (not one single test) since and allows Khelif and other biological men to compete in a woman' s boxing competition. Khelif and his team try to drum up sympathy and do interviews and bring more attention to their so-called "private" situation. If it's private, then why does Khelif do interviews and constantly post on social media about it?
7) Khelif dresses, walks,talks, and sits like a young adult man. Khelif literally wears men's suits, clothing, and jewelry. It's so blatant, and Khelif posts pics on his Instagram flaunting it. He doesn't care because the IOC isn't stopping him.
This is essentially what happened. Everyone knew, including Khelif, and they are not going to stop until a woman is killed.
Exactly!
Regardless of whether or not she is a woman, surely the question is 'does her condition give her an unfair advantage in women's sports?' We separate sport based on gender for a reason.
Unconfirmed condition. A condition of dubious origin. An condition based in an unfounded rumor. She passed the Olympic tests to be there in the first place. I am not going to take the Russian mob's "trust me bro" explanation
@@pathevermore3683the olympic test was his passport and he could prove he was XX but didn't
@@lourdeszurita9244 and plenty of
Hormone tests. Stop making up reasons to be offended and cry.
You cannot solve the fact that sports are inherently about some people having advantage over others. The issue is that what we consider "fair" is completely arbitrary. Is it fair that no short person has a chance at competitive basketball? Or that people with longer legs and shorter arms stand no chance at swimming...? Or even that some athletes have access to top notch training and support while others don't?
We could, for example, claim that taller people have a biological advantage over shorter people in basketball and proceed to claim tall people should not be allowed to compete against shorter people - is that something you would defend? Another example is the fact that black people have, on average, an advantage in sprinting over white people. Should there be a segregated category? If this last example sounds worse than the first, it is because it resonates with societal ills. I'd argue that we should not have sports (something not nearly as important as human rights and wellbeing) mimic societal ills. We can have, for boxing, a direct measure of strength, or a proxy for it (added to the weight categories we already have), or even previous performance in the sport...Speaking of that, did you know that the boxer in question lost 9 times? Anyway... There are many options that do not hinge on sex/gender and the extremely complex diversity of intersex people.
@@00Platypus00 To summarise, you are saying we should put an end to all female sport, just to accommodate for the fraction of the population that don't conform to gender norms. This is absurd.
Separating based on sex means both sexes have an equal chance to excel. We want to watch the most physically capable athlete _within_ each sex succeed. This is why it would ruin sport if we started separating basketball based on height, or weightlifting based on strength.
Imane khelif presents an extremely rare problem. Yes, she is a woman. But her very unique genetic condition gives her the same advantages that men hold over women.
This very rare case, however, should not convince us to throw the baby out with the bathwater
Thank you!
As far as I can tell... The major effect of anti-trans rhetoric has been to harm cis women...
Conservatives claiming they are all about women's rights are so dishonest.
Its really sad what a sell out RR has become. The boxing federation did not one, but two karyotype tests at accredited labs in 2 different countries & Khalif is an XY male. Without question hes been through male puberty, probably 5 alpha reductase deficiency with internal testes. Most DSD in sports are males anyway, due to the advantage it incurs. Having lived where he was born his parents certainly registered his birth themselves as femsle with no medics involved.
I’ve studiously stayed away from any RR content related to gender, because I want to keep my respect for Stephen and his efforts to uphold rationality in questions we both think are important.
Made an exception for this video and ended up exasperated. This is not how Stephen usually operates when religious claims are discussed, this is below his standard.
First of all, just because people around public and social media jumped to the wrong conclusions about Khelif’s sex/gender, it doesn’t mean that her inclusion in the women’s category was the right decision. Both Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting were disqualified for having unfair advantage over other female athletes and therefore not being fit to compete in the women’s category. The results say nothing about their gender, and whatever the underlying reason for this decision was, I agree that it’s not a reason to call either of them a man. They have lived their life as a woman and they should be respected as a woman, but they certainly should not compete as a woman, because an unfair advantage or a performance enhancing substance is equally against the rules of any sport, regardless of it coming from an outside source or from a developmental disorder. Perceived levels of femininity have nothing to do with it, but muscle density, lung capacity and a long list of other physical attributes affected by some anomaly definitely does. A woman’s well-toned upper body is not the same as someone’s who has gone through a partial or full male puberty, and Stephen surely knows that, because he made a pretty deep dive on it after receiving a brutal backlash for some statements on trans athletes. I find it pretty dishonest of him to talk about expectation of lady-like appearance (in a boxing ring, no less), instead of the real issue.
As for Khelif losing to other women before, well, an advantage is not a guaranteed ticket to the gold medal, there are countless other factors in play, from the intensity of training before the match to the ability to focus at the time. Just like all Michael Phelps’ world records have been broken by now, lost competitions are not an argument to support fairness.
Stephen ridicules the IBA for not disclosing the nature of the test and its results but come on. Everyone with half a brain must know that they are not allowed to publish this kind of sensitive, personal, medical information, since it would be a clear breach of international data protection laws. You know who could disclose it? Imane Khelif alone. So, let’s try to persuade her to show her hand, why don’t we? If you find it unsavoury to do so, you should not demand the same indiscretion from the Association, either.
Khelif and Lin were informed about the reasons of their disqualification, and they both accepted it as legally bonding decisions - Lin without appeal, and Khelif after withdrawing her initial appeal. The bottom line is, even if they did not know about their condition before for any reason (which I seriously doubt), both athletes were fully aware of their unfair advantage by the time they entered the competition in Paris. While I understand how devastatingly tragic it is to learn about a disqualifying circumstance after long years of hard work to be successful in a field, life has no obligation to be fair to us. Everyone is responsible for doing the right thing on their own. I have no respect for gold medal winner athletes who don’t compete on even playing field.
And finally, dismissing the performed test and its results on the ground that the IBA got banned from governing boxing events for corruption and their Russian connections makes zero sense. Not any of those have the slightest impact on the applied science involved in such testing, does it? It’s like saying that Schrodinger’s work as a physicist is any less valuable because he kept knocking up women left and right, including an underage girl he used to tutor. If someone can show the slightest motivation that would indicate a falsified test result for some random Algerian and Taiwanese competitors, let’s hear it, but keep it in mind that the tests were performed at the explicit request of other boxing teams, that there were two other unnamed female boxers tested at the same time as Khelif and Lin, and the other two have passed. And why would anyone accept a false result without appeal, anyway?
For a closing thought, I’d like to share a conspiracy theory of my own. I have a strong suspicion that the two disqualified athletes were allowed to compete and deliberately put in the spotlight for the sole purpose of stirring up exactly the kind of reaction we can see. Some ideologists see it fit to sacrifice the ancient traditions of fair competition in the Olympic Games, just to have the opportunity to point at the gender critical side with glee, exposing them for the unreasonable fools they are for attacking innocent women. It’s kind of disappointing to see Stephen obediently marching to someone else’s tune, instead of using his own (impressive!) brain power, like he usually does.
Excellent response.
@@juvenalsdad4175 Thank you :)
Yep. Excellent summary. RR missed the mark spectacularly in this video.
@@Vee-Hive He's burned himself once and perhaps he's a bit over-cautious about going against the loudest voices to ask some questions he would otherwise. I keep hoping that with time the pendulum will swing back again. :)
i see your pointz it’s a very valid take. But it’s so conveniet thwt nobody talked about this unfair advantage when she competed last time or the fact she doesn’t have a perfect record and has in fact been beaten before multiple times by other women. So why now is it a problem. Again, RR makes good points on the fact some people are born with genetic advantages. Michael phelps was literally born part amphibian but nobody said a word. Biological differences and hormonal differences are indeed also more common in women of colour and women with disorders so where do we draw the line.
@rationalityrules; can you please do a similar in depth piece on the Dutch volleyball player. There appear to be different views on that aswell.
It's funny how the Italian boxer got money from the IBA just after that match.
To be strictly fair to her - and in light of some of the things she said before the match I'm not sure she deserves it - she did refuse to accept the IBA's money.
@@DaraelDraconis Well, this isn't about her, but more so about the IBA. The fact that the IBA did this kills whatever remaining credibility they had left, if they had any left at all.
@@angelmendez-rivera351 oh, 100% - they saw that people would back their blatantly-political decision if they leaned in, so they leaned in.
I respect your sensibility to call out RD’s dissonance to say he does not want to discuss the topic, but yet he is. Your fight is more than fair.
Keep paying the bills, Stephen.
Surely by this time the Pritzker Foundation or the Arcus Foundation is paying Stephen.
@@littlecatfeet9064 I wouldn’t like to go there but the very fact that podcasters who know no more biology than I do are pretending that Dawkins is somehow wrong is just embarrassing. I realise they know their demographic and they have to keep their audience but ten thousand millennials saying one OAP is wrong is not an argument. Stephen knows this too, of course, but he has to maintain the façade for the gang. I can’t even watch him, Dillahunty or Valkai anymore.
@@jezdavis1865 I suppose the video he did a few years ago about trans “women” and sports advantages, and the huge backlash he received, let him know that he had a nice little business and it would be a shame to lose it. But yes, I can’t watch any “atheists” who embrace this quasi-religious, cultish ideology.
@jezdavis1865 You can't watch Valkai....a biologist, but you are fully on board with Dawkins? 😂 Fk off pal. Your agenda is showing.
I remember a picture/clip of a bodybuilding contest some 30+ years ago.
It had a text along the lines: “the women are the ones wearing a bikini top”. And that was pretty much all the difference you could see.
So just to be clear, Imane has gone through this before, and not without controversy. Attempting to ideologically wash this based on attempting to stand on the comments that she is a he, is a bit disingenuous. The reason why so many controversies which Imane has faced throughout her career is due to failing the chromosome tests. Also her dad’s statements on raising her as a girl didn’t help either. The reason the tests failed, is because she is more likely a hemaphrodite. This has more to do with the testing that happened before the Olympics and it seems like a lot of people are caping for clout on RUclips and through the media. Very interesting. I do believe it’s unfair, but calling it speculation is wild. Simply because you didn’t get enough information doesn’t mean not everyone else did.
We are allowed to use our eyes and brain.
Fighting sports are arguably terrible, and even though I have a guilty habit of watching them, to argue Carini could've been killed is a statement that applies to every single fight match ever.
Somebody has to lose.
Double-jointedness as most people think of it is not a thing, I.e. two joints where most people have one. There is a condition called Joint Hypermobility but this is generally painful and, I would think, detrimental to athletic performance.